I believe Omid has responded to you both eloquently and comprehensively, but I couldn’t help but respond to your willingness to judge an entire faith and over one billion people through the words of just one individual. I’m sure you duly noted that Abu Salih’s views were criticized, and mind you, there are many Muslims out there who would similarly voice their condemnation.

As Omid rightly pointed out, Islam is not a monolithic faith, but there are a myriad of opinions espoused within it. It is true and extremely unfortunate that there are many intolerant and violent voices within the community, but just as equally, there are many who believe in a peaceful, tolerant and loving Islam.

If you wish to engage in dialogue with the “moderate Muslims” (and that’s a phrase I’ve grown to dislike!), then blanket vilification and flagrant miscategorization won’t get you far, especially if you lack the necessary knowledge.

I’ve seen so-called “religious experts” produce non-existent Qur’anic verses and hadiths that they concoct in order to spread their hateful message. I’ve also met with bloggers intent on “informing the world about the evil Muzzies”, when all they know of the Qur’an are the few odd verses they picked from Jihad Watch and Little Green Footballs.

Mind you, I’m not accusing you of being hateful, but just as you are concerned and fearful of the fanatics, we are too. We are all tired of having our faith and identities hijacked, we are all tired of always having to state the obvious: that we aren’t bloodthirsty barbarians with a throbbing thirst for rape and massacres.

You do raise some interesting points and I will answer them as best I can. First of all, we encourage and applaud you for coming to this forum to discuss the issues at hand that affect many people. I do feel that if we are to have such a dialog we must be respectful and dignified so if you perceive that I have been unfair or unreasonable, I apologize.

So,

“First, I am not a Baha’i nor associated with any religion but just a free thinker who respect all kinds of beliefs as long as they do not incite war, hurt or discriminate against others and preach fire and brimstone at their pulpits. But I will warn my friends if I notice a cult that is dangerous or evil just as I will warn others of murderers, rapists, peadophiles, etc.”

This is a very popular approach and frankly nothing is wrong with this. In fact you are doing a great service if this is actually what you are up to. People need people like you to help prevent crime and keep on the look out for terrorists. However, when we make blanket statements and say that the entire religion is such, its just not accurate. Here I am, a Baha’i, standing up for what I know is the truth about Islam. We have over a billion Muslims in the World, and like any other society, Muslims who live there and in these parts, have issues and problems. Just like America and its problem with “Christian” white supremacists who find justification in the Bible, or fanatical abortion opponents who grease doctors that perform them. What about the dark chapters of Catholic history where they burned people alive and made people confess to crimes they never committed? My point is, yes, keep on guard for fanatics and watch out for villains, but to make the blanket statement about the whole religion is unfair, when you know and I know that there are peaceful Muslims and peaceful people just trying to live their lives and co-exist. Fanaticism is the scourge of the 21st century and we must fight it with everything at our disposal. This discussion is a good way.

Second, based on what I see, I do not see Islam being a good and peaceful cult but the contrary. Tell me the good in Islam, and if so, how come it produces terrorists and people like Abu Salih? If I remember right, Christ said: “Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.”

Islam in general has many different styles and sects, two main branches and various sub-divisions. With various Imams and clerics who espouse and focus on different teachings, we find numerous interpretations of the Quran and how it should be read. Indeed some un-educated people with narrow minds and silly tribal traditions have distorted the underlying peaceful message that Islam brings. I know a girl, American, blond and blue eyed, who went from a Christian, to a Muslim, to a Baha’i simply because she saw the truths and spiritual unity of the themes that they all espoused as essentially the same. To blast the belief system as violent or bigoted is un-fair because so many people the World over rely on it for sustenance. Indeed there are bad apples, and as you say, you should judge them by their fruits. The best way to deal with people, is to only deal with people and their behavior and actions. Forget what they tell you about their ideals, or their beliefs because unfortunately the believers themselves are often not the best examples. So if we are to at all attempt peace and understanding, which I am sure Christ would, we are to turn the other cheek when faced with idiocy and show them understanding and show them the better path. Let’s face it, some people are miss-guided and need a little help. Instead of calling the stupid boy in class stupid all the time, the teacher has to spend a little extra time and work with him, encourage him, support him and be a good example. If not, it will only get worse.

Thirdly, I do not hate Muslims and Islam, but FEAR AND LOATHE THEM and based on their evil deeds around the world and their way of logic that as long as one does not accept their interpretations, you are an enemy of Islam. Never once did I advocate violence against them, but just as there are evil people like murderers, rapists, thiefs, etc., I will warn others of such evil people but let the police handle them – is this wrong? By issuing such good warnings, does this make me a murderer, rapist, thief, to quote you: “kind of ironic Limang that you complain about someone else being so hateful and yet you display the exact same intolerance and hatred.” If there is a poisonous cobra in your house, do you allow it to go round killing your children and guests or would you warn others about it? If you do warn your guests, does it make you a cobra? Talk sense, man!

I think I addressed a lot of what you said here in the previous answer but I will try to reiterate. To loathe means to hate. Since you quote Jesus, I would hope that you understand that it order to do so, you must give credence to some of his other teachings. In any case, dangerous people do exist. Muslim, Christian, Jew, Buddhist, American, Saudi, Iranian…whatever…people are people and fanatics are found in all segments of society. I was watching on the news last night about a local religious family who was arrested for child abuse because their kids did not pray enough so they beat them. These people were “Christians”. But, ironically the man had a beard like Osama! This only shows that people and thier non-sense often get the most attention when they mess up, moreover they make it worse by associating their religion with there actions. I do believe in counter-terrorism and right now, Islamic fanatics are a threat to world stability…ok. Go after them, find them in the caves and burn their beards. But, in order to really win the battle, in order to erase their satanic fancies, we must encourage discussion, dialog, education, talking, exchanges. We are one planet and one people, we can find so many similarities and I assure Muslims have families too they want to protect from cobras. My point is to always struggle for a higher standard than your opponent like Ghandi or Martin Luther King. They struggled for so long and in the end both gave their lives for peace and equality. We may have to do the same, but we will win, as they did–without the bombs and guns.

Fifthly, you brand me a non-Muslim version of Abu Salih. Now is this how you appreciate your sympathiser and supporter, who is trying to get his government to help the Baha’is? Thanks a lot! Who is the verson of Abu Salih, who is offensive, rude and intolerable here – you or me?

All I am saying is that we should not stoop to the same level. If you are a sympathizer and supporter of human rights, not just Baha’i rights, I applaud you and encourage you to continue. There is much work to be done, but we cannot fight fire with fire. Only the wise effects of intelligence, thoughtful reflection, sincere effort and honest attempts and conciliation. We must all question out motives when we hurl blame. Do we really wan’t peace, or do we want to simply piss off our enemies? Anybody who comes to this site and is intolerant of the intolerant I will always remind them that wont work. We have to show them their own problems in their own terms–maybe then we make a difference in their minds. Our goal is to “think ahead” at MEY.

Sixth: Why don’t your fellow Baha’is in Iran and Egypt flee the country that is out to exterminate you? There are so many peaceful countries that will welcome you guys where you can practise your religion in peace. Why are you not helping your co-religionists to flee the country? You talk of helping the world but you can’t even help your own kind – doesn’t make sense. Maybe, do what the Jews did – get the UN to give you a piece of land to call it your own where the Baha’is can all live in peace. After, you are so few and can easily fit into a big piece of land.

This is rather miss-informed and I will take the opportunity to address it. In general, Baha’is have been in suffering in Iran and the middle east since the inception of the Faith…its nothing new. Baha’is do get help from other Baha’is when things get terrible for them and indeed thousands have left Iran for the west and other countries. We help our co-religionists the best and most practical way possible. But, if 400,000 people just suddenly decided to leave, don’t you think that would cause some kind of mass-exodus issues? I guarantee you that no country would allow it. Moreover, the situation in Iran although difficult, is not dyer. People are not yet being slaughtered in the streets, nor are they being burned alive like they were during the revolution or before. Our religious institutions have the insight to know that if we stick with it, through thick and thin, things will get better. However, when individuals are indeed target specifically and their is imminent danger, yes, we do help them get out. As far as the UN giving us land, I don’t think we would take it. The Baha’i goal is unity, peace, and spiritual re-awakening through the message of Baha’u'llah as the newest messenger of God. We realize that not all people will believe this and its ok, we do not force it on anyone. Our belief asks us to unconditionally fight for peace, education, equality and justice. We do not seek to isolate ourselves nor do we run and hide from the face adversity. How will the the World know about our message if we do not test it with conflict brought on by those who disagree with it? We continuously have the moral high ground when we follow these principles and our cause and struggle will always be followed by sympathizers and like-minded groups and individuals. It is the time tested and proven way to struggle in the face of ugly fanaticism and brutality.

Lastly, convince me, if you have SOLUTIONS TO THE KILLINGS OF BAHA’IS and I may well become a Baha’i too ! As it is, you Baha’is depend on the non-Baha’is who are not Muslims to help you. We live in a real world, that is why we have police, laws, punishments, etc. to protect the innocent, peaceful, good, etc. like you guys. Let me quote what the tagline the Pentagon has: “The world is a grim place, that is why we exist.” But being rude and insulting is not helping, really!

Like I said before, I do not mean to be rude or insulting, but I will always ask that we do not answer bigotry with more anger or intolerance. Abu Salih is free to come here and give his opinion, he is not harming anyone and frankly he is only showing how ignorant he is when he does so. We must have faith in the common peoples’ ability to be able to tell truth from non-sense. I understand and sympathize with your feelings and fears about how fanatics are making the World a more dangerous place, but we must be the light and alternative to such idiocy. Only by working together, when we disavow violence, engage in constructive dialog, take part in peace, speak out against injustice and stay true to virtue will we succeed. I have no doubt that suffering will continue and killings will continue, Baha’i or not. It is heart wrenching and very sad, and of course our easiest re-action is to hate those who oppress us. However, we must not let their sacrifice and suffering to be the cause of more of the same. We must always press on and in doing so, show the World we are right.

First, I am not a Baha’i nor associated with any religion but just a free thinker who respect all kinds of beliefs as long as they do not incite war, hurt or discriminate against others and preach fire and brimstone at their pulpits. But I will warn my friends if I notice a cult that is dangerous or evil just as I will warn others of murderers, rapists, peadophiles, etc.

Second, based on what I see, I do not see Islam being a good and peaceful cult but the contrary. Tell me the good in Islam, and if so, how come it produces terrorists and people like Abu Salih? If I remember right, Christ said: “Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.”

Thirdly, I do not hate Muslims and Islam, but FEAR AND LOATHE THEM and based on their evil deeds around the world and their way of logic that as long as one does not accept their interpretations, you are an enemy of Islam. Never once did I advocate violence against them, but just as there are evil people like murderers, rapists, thiefs, etc., I will warn others of such evil people but let the police handle them – is this wrong? By issuing such good warnings, does this make me a murderer, rapist, thief, to quote you: “kind of ironic Limang that you complain about someone else being so hateful and yet you display the exact same intolerance and hatred.” If there is a poisonous cobra in your house, do you allow it to go round killing your children and guests or would you warn others about it? If you do warn your guests, does it make you a cobra? Talk sense, man!

Fourthly, I am really confused with you Baha’is – why are you guys so defenseless and peace-loving to the point of allowing evil to grow? Let me remind of what Winston Churchill says: when Nazi Germany was getting strong and becoming a serious threat to other peaceful nations, many of them were making peace treaty with Germany, so he said: “What they are doing is like appeasing a crocodile who gets bigger by the day and will eventually gobble them up.” Which was what exactly happens – Germany went on to start the WWII! He also says: “For evil to proliferate is for a few good men to do nothing.” Doesn’t your religion allow you to defend yourself? You want peace, but peace comes with a price. I would defend you, for crying out loud, even though I am not a Baha’i. As we say in America, I may not agree with you, but I will defend to the death your right to disagree.

Fifthly, you brand me a non-Muslim version of Abu Salih. Now is this how you appreciate your sympathiser and supporter, who is trying to get his government to help the Baha’is? Thanks a lot! Who is the verson of Abu Salih, who is offensive, rude and intolerable here – you or me?

Sixth: Why don’t your fellow Baha’is in Iran and Egypt flee the country that is out to exterminate you? There are so many peaceful countries that will welcome you guys where you can practise your religion in peace. Why are you not helping your co-religionists to flee the country? You talk of helping the world but you can’t even help your own kind – doesn’t make sense. Maybe, do what the Jews did – get the UN to give you a piece of land to call it your own where the Baha’is can all live in peace. After, you are so few and can easily fit into a big piece of land.

Lastly, convince me, if you have SOLUTIONS TO THE KILLINGS OF BAHA’IS and I may well become a Baha’i too ! As it is, you Baha’is depend on the non-Baha’is who are not Muslims to help you. We live in a real world, that is why we have police, laws, punishments, etc. to protect the innocent, peaceful, good, etc. like you guys. Let me quote what the tagline the Pentagon has: “The world is a grim place, that is why we exist.” But being rude and insulting is not helping, really!

Shall look forward to your response.

You seem to be displaying the same kind of hatred as the people we are trying to change.

I agree. It’s kind of ironic Limang that you complain about someone else being so hateful and yet you display the exact same intolerance and hatred. Try Omid’s suggestion and then maybe people might take you more seriously:

if you think you are better than Abu Salih, prove it with knowledge, wisdom, kindness and mercy.

Being hateful just means that you’re just as violent and bad as the people whom you claim are part of some “death cult.” Get real with your arguments. Right now all I see is the non-Muslim version of Abu Salih.

You seem to be displaying the same kind of hatred as the people we are trying to change. As a Baha’i, you would think I and other Baha’is would feel the most rage at the way we are treated. However, we cannot judge the religion based off of the believers. Believers are weak, incompetent and just plain dumb sometimes. I assure though, Islam is not about what you say. It is up to us as rational and thoughtful beings to wiegh the content of each message and look for the good in all things, and simply ignore the rest, or at least take it with a grain of salt.

I don’t think it is conducive to dialog and change if we are always pointing the finger. We have to be respectful, even though we disagree. if you think you are better than Abu Salih, prove it with knowledge, wisdom, kindness and mercy.

The Quran, like the Bible, has stories and accounts of the time. Its not to be taken literally. I guess since Abraham was wanting to test his faith, he almost sacrificed his son. Should I go and do that? My wife would kill me. God gave us brains to use, despite the media depiction of people the World over not using it, a great majority do. Let’s try and do the same.

But from what Abu Salih has said and quoted, then what I have heard is TRUE that Islam is an evil cult, and will always manufactured terrorsits bent on killing others if they do not share the same beliefs. It means to me that if I, a non-Musilm, were to kindly invite a Muslim into my house for friendship but because I don’t share his belief, he can kill me, rape my wife and daughters and taken over my house as the ’spoils’ of that killing BECAUSE IT IS APPROVED BY THE QUR’AN AND HADITHS.

What a dangerous cult!

May the true all-loving God save us from this evil.

I wanted to know more about what you mean by Bahais cannot have an ID card. I mean do you mean that in their ID card it will not be mentioned that they ara Bahais?

The Egyptian state only recognizes three religions – Islam, Christianity and Judaism. Egyptian ID cards require that a person lists her/his religious affiliation, and in the past Baha’is would circumvent that by leaving the space blank, or writing a dash “-”.

However, with Egypt’s computerization of the ID system, Egyptian Baha’is no longer have that option. The only available option is to lie about their religion.

Although in April 2006 an Egyptian court ruled that a Baha’i couple have the right to state their religion in their IDs, the ruling was met with much criticism – particularly by Al Azhar – and was eventually overturned.

Those are some good questions and I wish I knew the answer, but from what I do know, if the country has a secular constitution Baha’is at least have the legal rights to do what they like. When it comes to conversions, legally there is no problem, but those that choose to convert if they come from Muslim families are often outcast, or deemed an apostate by their religious authorities. Turkey and Pakistan both have sizable Baha’i populations and both do ok as far as rights are concerned. Pervez Musharaff, despite his recent troubles, went out of the way to wish the Baha’is a Happy Naw Ruz, or new year, which is also the new year for lots of other people…Some of the gulf countries have been refuges and jumping off points for Baha’is after the escape Iran. The UAE, Qatar, Kuwait, all have little communities that try to not step on anyones toes. Jordan’s former King Husayn had a soft spot for the Baha’is and their teachings of peace and from what I hear would go to Haifa and visit the gardens on occasion. They also have a few hundred Baha’is in Jordan…Syria, I do not know. Saudi…Highly unlikely. Yemen, Oman they do have Baha’is but I do not know too much about it because it seems most of them were Persian immigrants and settled nicely. Iraq has had a long history with the Faith and Baha’u'llah lived their for 10 years. However, this century for Iraq has been nothing but coups, wars, conflicts and occupations…not much reason for anyone to stay in Iraq, let along those who are in the religious minority. Lebanon has a few…and as you mentioned, Israel. Baha’is do not hold Israeli citizenship nor do they have permanent resident visas. They have work visas and live mostly in Haifa for stints of about 1 year to 5 years…Some may stay longer if their expertise is needed. Interestingly the biggest Baha’i community is in India. Brazil has a large one, Africa is full of Baha’is and the fastest growing community is actually in Mongolia.

Magnus, assuming that only your opinion is the truth is only proof of your utter ignorance. Don’t spam. You expressed your opinion, and no on agreed with it. Let it go. Now it’s time to get back on topic; random Islamophobic remarks are entirely irrelevant. Any further trolling and copy/paste junk from Islamophobic sites will be moderated. You got your chance to stay relevant and you didn’t respect that, now go find a spot in the forums to rant.

It is not about enforcing opinions on others; it’s about getting to know the truth. Now that you know Muhammad was a warlord and looter, doesn’t this disqualify him as a divine messenger? If it doesn’t, what does that say about Muslims’ moral and ethical standards?

that is correct.

You wrote “the Egyptian government is wise to bar the recognition of the Baha’i cult, they know that the alternative will be a disastrous social unrest by the Islamic population which will hate to see their religions degraded.”

With respect, how would recognition of the bahai faith lead to disastrous social unrest? In many countries the bahai faith has been recognized and I don’t see any disastrous unrest as a result. Where would that unrest come from?
Also, how would recognition of the bahai faith ‘degrade’ religions? What is so wrong with the bahai faith? Please explain beyond just labeling it a ‘cult’.

No, religion is not a game. Remember that Muhammad, peace be upon him, has also been, and still is, labeled by some as an inventor of a new cult, an imitator, a disturber of social order and a ‘degrader’ of religion. If you don’t recognize the bahai revelation as a divine revelation than it is still more honourable not to follow the footsteps of those who do not accept the Qur’an as a divine revelation. If you want to convince an outsider that Islam is a religion and the bahai faith a cult you’ll have explain how to recognize the difference.