Israelis are not all Bad
I am Israeli. I am proud of myself and my country for its accomplishments but being proud of one’s country does not mean agreeing with everything it does. I would just like to clear some things up about what Israel is, what it means and who we are as Israelis.
A. Zionism does not mean stealing land. The land of Palestine/Israel (I don’t care what you call it) has been shared by Arabs and Jews for many hundreds of years. We are neighbors, brothers and sisters. The beauty of the future of Israel is its diversity. One day we will share the land like we have for many years. I do not deny that between the 1880s and 1950s there was a large population increase among Jews in Israel but do people stop to think why. As a people we were rejected by EVERY nation we occupied.
Progroms- Russia said go somewhere else or die. Imagine 30 minute notice to leave on cattle cars to ‘somewhere else’ or be sliced down by marauding Cossacks.
Holocaust- 6 million Jews murdered. Some lucky ones escaped and came to Palestine. Some tried to go to America where the boats were turned around and sent back to the ovens of death.
Forever Jews have been thrown out. We’ve spent the past two thousand years wandering the world looking for someone who wont try and kill us. In the 1940s we give up and go home to Israel. The land we had always been in. The experience of aliyah (ascent into the land Israel) is inexplicable. It is an overwhelming sense of coming home. Israel is where we belong. It is our home too and it is hurtful when Palestinians argue that we stole the land. Most of us (there are crazies on all sides) just want to live peacefully. That brings me to B.
B. All anyone knows about Israel is our government. People think of the IDF, Mossad, hard-assed Prime Ministers, etc. Most of us are actually nice people. We believe in peace. Most people I know want the West Bank and Gaza to become sovereign nations. We want equal rights for Palestinians and Arab-Israelis. Like I said, there are extremists on all sides but most Israelis just want the dying to stop on all fronts. We don’t want anymore rockets, bullets, stones, tanks, guns, fighting or bombs no matter who it comes from or who it is aimed at. We just want it to stop.
In both Islam and Judaism, Palestine/Israel is supposed to be a land of peace and happiness, a land of beauty and prosperity. Why can’t we just get along and achieve these ideals? I want them for everyone, whether you are Muslim or Jewish or Christian or whatever.
C. It is unfair that people see this conflict as Israeli oppression of Palestinians. The GOVERNMENT has done bad things to the Palestinians but as a people, we can’t be judged by our government’s actions. Israelis have suffered greatly in this conflict, too.
Really, both sides are wrong and being led by complete IDIOTS! No one will be happy until both sides stop being stupid and insane. I hope that the youth of Palestine/Israel will lead our two nations into peace. I hope that our youth will make proper decisions and stop killing.
One day there will be peace. I promise.
Join the Conversation
A. Zionism does not mean stealing land.
It does. It was the British occupiers’ fault, though – and it would have been too much to expect the generation of 1948 to reject the land given to them by the British empire.
B. We believe in peace.
Well, actually about 80 % of the Israeli population supported the illegal against Lebanon in 2006. That’s not peanuts, that’s probably the highest accept rate for an illegal war in a democracy ever.
B. Israel is where we belong.
Well, that’s most probably the biggest problem about it all. You can change you nationality after you’ve lived 8 years in my country. After living on a ground for 30 years, in my country it is yours. And you really think, after 2000 years you still needed to come? That’s not an argument.
C. [...] as a people, we can’t be judged by our government’s actions.
Err, you’re living in a democracy, are you? Israel can be proud to have a working democratic system – but that too means you can be judged by your government’s actions. You are the people who brought it into power, so it’s you people’s power which commits the government’s crimes.
So after all, your argumentation lacks realism, arguments and logic. It is great to have people like you who believe in peace between Israel and Palestine, really. But you need to get rid of your sugarcandy view on Israel and its people.
P.S.: Good luck with the changes on this site!
Hi Naim, who said israelis were bad? the conflict it bad and I hope it will end very soon. The creation or recreation of a country or a nation has many factors involved in it, some times things happen in the course of history that many people do not understand right at the moment why this is all happenening, but later on people analys and have a less subjective acount and then they try to look at the event from another point of view. This needs the pass of time so the generations involved in those massive changes would be replaced by younger generations, who haven’t been directly affected. When some thing as great as revolution and defeating of epoeros and world wars and the things that redifines countries happen, I am not very sure it is very fruitful to go find out wether it had been good or bad, now see the outcome, a nation is defined and another one is in the process of declaring an independent state. Many countries have tried to intervien and try to stop either of the two magjor groups and perhaps against the other, all this hadn’t been much helpful. The problems of that sacred region should be revolved by the efforts of the people who belong to the region, and i hope countries around would realise that. These days we hear better things like the truce on one side and discussions about a better future on the opther side. Naim, people should support one another despite all the differences of the states, and I know when we are left to ourselves we do that. Sure you are a respetful person from Middle East, so is the Palstinian and the Egyptian, the Kurd and the Tukr and Arab. I dream about a Middle East that would respect and accept all its children whatever the color and race and religion , that way we will rock
Both of you made excellent points.
I realize that my views of Israel are probably somewhat idealistic and naive on the impromptu opinion polls were not very scientifically done. I should of said that among my friends, classmates and the other people I talk to who are young and idealistic as well.
On the topic of war with Lebanon: I think a lot of people saw that war as justified. If not justified, they let their emotions take over after the katyusha rocket bombings of Sderot and all those kibbutzim, then there was the kidnapping of Eldad Regev and Ehud Goldwasser.
On the topic of who thinks Israelis are bad people: I think that there is an overwhelming solidarity with the Palestinian people (which is great, because I believe I support equality and justice for Palestinians too) and that gets translated into anti-Israeli sentiment. We probably don’t face as much prejudiced as Palestinians do in Israel, but it is still noticeable. Lots of Israelis are now getting dual citizenship with countries like the US, the Netherlands, the UK and France just so they don’t have to carry their passports through customs. When people hear you’re Israeli outside of the country, there is this odd shock people have that they don’t get with other foreigners.
Anyway, I hope that one day all of this will all be over and no one will hate anyone else.
“Anyway, I hope that one day all of this will all be over and no one will hate anyone else.”
That’s our pacifistic faith, isn’t it?
don’t tell me this sh** you and your Zionism thing…tell your goverment to stop what they do and stop equipping lands..your history is full of bloods mate..you caused alot of problems over the world….i am against this f* movement
Hi Naim, thanks for taking the opportunity to join the discussions. I hope you are not being discouraged by the disagreements here, but everyone has a point, and I think what most of them are trying to say is that actions speak louder than words. There are many great people in Israel working hard for change, but we hope that they would try and influence their governments to seek alternatives instead of threatening with an attack (or just attacking ahead) without thinking of the consequences.
It seems Iran is next on Israel’s list, so we hope our Israeli friends will work hard to try and stop their government from taking away innocent people’s lives for the sake of their own blood. We value your lives (well, except for the terrorists, who don’t value our lives either) and we hope that you will start valuing ours as well.
Every religion and nationality has its extremists. I hope everyone can see past them and start taking real action to ensure that young people will not take their lead.
Esra’a, I really think my point in writing this was trying to express just that, there are lots of people in Israel that don’t want things to stay how they are. I’m not discouraged, I enjoy hearing how other people react to Israel. I’d like to better understand the people that have for so long been forgotten.
I understand, everyone, that Israel has done horrible things but from a Jewish perspective, the land of Israel is our last hope. So, the solution to the conflict probably won’t be leaving again. The solution will be being better neighbors.
I have to apologize for not being able to argue as effectively, as I should. The article was kind of an emotional, unorganized rant than a true argument for the existence of Israel and most of my replies have taken quite a long time to write mainly because I’ve had to use my little blue dictionary just to make sense of what everyone is saying.
I’m very bad at arguing for Israel because I’m not an expert on every historical or political event but, in general, I think (and many people that I know..again, not a very well done official poll or anything but rather a personal experience thing) that Israel has the right to exist, as well as Palestine. One day I think there will be no more conflict.
I have a third comment related to democracy in Israel: unfortunately our government does not listen to us. We are a ‘democracy’ but if you saw ‘The Economist’s’ lists of most democratic countries in the world, Israel did not even make it into the top tier, it was in the second level of ‘Faulty Demos’ at number 30 something in the world. It is unfortunate but when people ask for peace in our country they are labeled as peaceniks, crazies, radicals and seperatists or whatever. In the 70s there was a song call ‘Shir haShalom’ (Song of Peace) that was actually banned and wasn’t allowed to be played on the radio or anything. So, our government is against peace but the youth of our country is for it. Unfortunately, our government has never cared what we think. The reason we exist is to line the pockets of Mr. Olmert. We’re there for him to steal from then ignore.
Of course, we’ll continue fighting for peace in our war-torn nation but it’s harder than you think. And to think that we chose the government that did horrible things, the word ‘chose’ should fall under scrutiny.
Naim,
I guess we all share that!
Amen
I guess most of us, we are not experts in aregueing
The reason I am here writing is because for a long time I was looking for somewhere that diffrent people would come and talk, because ven we won’t get that the way we should in our country. I was listening to the news boradcasted from outside Iran who reflect the news from Inside which is censored. The mother of one of the activists for one million signitures was on the phone and crying, her daughter was talking to the youth in a park in Tehran, afterwards, when she was going back home the quards broek into the bus and took her, she managed to call her by her cell phone and shout” they are taking me !”. They tore up her dress as they were dragging her, the was beaten up and taken into custody, she was blindfolded, they told her go out tell every one you were tortured!, and she says i tell the truth, I will say exactly what you did to me. Well, she has been in jail for 19 deay now, ( Mahboobeh Karami”, she still doesn’t have the right to see her lawyer, she is in the same cell with some other women and they are not taking to the yard at all.
See this is happening in my country only for trying to collect some signitures! for human rights! for women’s rights!, for Kurds rights, for Bahis’ right!,
So I want to tell you that in the Middle east, each one of us have our own issues.
Perhaps we can be helpful in making Middle East what we like, and that is a place were human rights and human dignity and fredom is respected, and all other issues that all of us would agree on in the big picture
As much as you feel bad about your conflict I feel bad about the way my country deals with the minorities,how it deals with the youth, some days from now is the aniversary of the students uprise in Tehran, that uprise was manhandled and we still have stdents in jail after 10 years. In advance the univeisities close up, so that all the hostels and the facilities are closed. I agree with Esra’a in ding some thing that is fruitful, but how fruitful an activity could be, that all depends on the situation, but it is better than nothing at all. We have a versre in Persian that says : Kooshese Bihoodeh Beh Az Mandegi, that means ” trying just matter of factly is better than nothing at all ” .
Be well, Naim, Esra;a guys and girls from our messy but beautiful Middle East. I guess things will change when your generation is in charge !
Naim:
Once I read the title of your post, “Israelis are not all bad”, I guessed that it is a young Israeli. It reminded me of my first use of Internet: when I entered a Jewish chat room to find an Israeli to ask ‘why you kill innocent Palestinians’, just to hear that: “Israelis are not all bad.” Now, after 10 years, I do have a better understanding of your society: not a solid, uniform one (as depicted by Iran’s state media), but a mixture of good ones and bad ones.
Therefore, I think that Israelis should be directly engaged to non-Israelis (Arabs, Iranians, etc.) to introduce themselves as they are, not as their government shows or hostile media depicts. And by ‘Israelis’, I do not mean high-ranking politicians or university professors… just the ordinary people, as two neighbors would speak to each other. This way, we would get much closer to a historical, ever-lasting compromise, God-willing.
And I enjoyed your post, as do I enjoy listening to my younger friends speaking about change in Iran: energetic and probably less realistic people who are determined to make a difference. That is a good sign: hope for a better, more justified future is not dead, while there are people who can make this dream come true.
Finally, With regards to Middle East conflict, we may disagree about certain cases or issues. Compared to 50 years ago, however, people have achieved a remarkable improvement: non-Israelis have come to accept that Israel is here to stay, and Israelis have come to understand that ‘this is not a land without people, for a people without land.’ Given the initial hostility that existed in the region, this is a significant accomplishment.
So, keep up with writing here. Concrete arguments aside… emotion is needed as well.
Good point, Memarian. Now let’s think of that _historical compromise_, of something unique for the history of the Middle East : The creation of a pluritheistic State of Israel which recognizes _Jewish politics_ ALONG with _Muslim politics_ – the _destruction_ of your “Hebrew” State, as wanted by Hamas, ALONG with the _colonization_ of Palestine.
Arabic is a Semitic language, isn’t it ?
For _Eretz Israel_ is NOT the land of a Jewish, or Muslim community ; it is the Holy Land of EACH Individual. RELIGION IS NOT THE WILL OF GOD. The general, the community is NOT the Will of God. The Will of God is OUR Will.
yours sincerely,
V.
Naim,
Being from the USA, I feel like I can relate to you a little. America and Americans are always being blamed for doing bad things around the world. I used to care what other countries thought about The USA. Now, I don’t. In the last 30 years, the most favorable world opinion of The USA was during the aftermath of 9-11. So, when America appears weak and vulnerable, suddenly people like her. Well, I will choose prosperous and powerful, and those people in other countries can keep their opinions. I don’t need them.
I know, I talked a lot about the USA. But, I think Israel is confronted by those same mindsets. I really think people in those other countries are envious of Israel and the USA. As long as Israel is powerful and civilized society, those people will always be envious. There is nothing that you, Israel, or Israelis can do to take the envy out of their hearts.
Israel is a great country made possible by great people. Jews have contibuted more than their share to the civilization of our world. If you have faith in yourself and your fellow countrymen, then don’t worry what other people think. You and your fellow countrymen have your best interests at heart. People in other countries do not have your best interests in their heart. You and Israel have nothing to be ashamed of, and much to be proud of.
Sincerely,
Derek
Derek,
Envious ? For what ? The USA’s & Israel’s “World Leadership” ? I couldn’t care less. Your will to rule is the same than that of the Romans, the same than that of Napoleon’s France – the same than Nazi Germany. I don’t want such “power”.
By the way, civilization does not protect from barbarism – the Ancient Chinese, Aztec and Maya people, the British colonists of the XIXth century ALL WERE HIGHLY “CIVILIZED” – I think I don’t have to remind you of what they ALL have done – do I ? Hm, yes, I forgot : Abu Ghraib.
Cursed is all power I say.
yours sincerely,
V.
Farbentod (France,
Thank you. You are exactly the type of person I was talking about. You obviously don’t like USA, no matter what. Just like many people don’t like Israel. For example, USA donated 3 billion dollars in 2007 to try and eliminate HIV in Africa. How many lives did that save ? You don’t care. You care about some pictures of naked criminals. I know, you like to pretend they were just innocent angels. But, for example, three of those in the pictures forcibly sodomized a 15 year old inmate. I’m sure you don’t care about the 15 year old either. You only want to try and club me over the head with the bogeyman of Abu Ghraib Prison. Sorry, your jedi mind tricks don’t work on me.
Here is some USA leadership for you. According to the BBC, as of Jan 27, 2005, here is what France donated to the 2004 Tsunami:
France
$66m in government donations, plus an estimated $90m raised in private and business donations. A medical team has been sent to Sri Lanka.
Now, the USA:
United States
$350m in government donations, although this is expected to rise to $650m. Washington also sent military assistance involving 12,600 personnel, 21 ships, 14 cargo planes and more than 90 helicopters. Around $200 million of private donations, with $120m donated to the US branches of the Red Cross, Oxfam and Save the Children, and to Catholic Relief Services.
But, actually, private contributions from Americans was much more, closer to 1.5 billion. But, you don’t care. It’s not enough for you and it will never be enough. Because of Abu Ghraib….sniffle..sniffle.
Now, you are in France, so I thought you would know the difference between USA and Hitler. Obviously, you don’t. But, don’t worry, as a proud American I am always ready to help out. Nazi Germany is the country that invaded France and killed about 100,000 of your young men, and plundered your country. USA is the country that sent thousands of her young men to die your shores and fields to liberate France and giver her back to the French people. Does that ring a bell ? Ok, I’ll give you one more clue. Do you remember the 80,000 jews that were rounded up and sent to death camps ? Yeah, you sent them to Nazi Germany, not the USA. I hope that helps.
Your Friend,
Derek
Sure. Iraq’s bell.
Mohammad Memarian (Iran),
That’s cute. Thank you, Mohammad. You are another person who will never be happy with the USA. Now, How did the USA plunder Iraq ? The cost to USA of the Iraq War is 9 billion per month. That is the opposite of plunder. But, please, tell me how the USA is plundering Iraq. Give examples, please.
You’re from Iran ? You really want to argue in favor of Saddam Hussein ? Didn’t he use chemical weapons against Iranians ?
So, out of my whole mesaage, you just cut-and-pasted a tiny part. Made some snarky reply. Ok, fine. Just ignore the humanitarian aid.
What happened in the 2003 earthquake in Bam ? Did the USA help ? Yes, five million dollars and airlifting supplies. According to the U.S. Department of Defense (DOD), seven C-130s have airlifted approximately 68 metric tons (MT) of medical supplies, 2,000 blankets, and a 10K forklift to assist in offloading relief commodities in Bam.
What did Iranians ever do for USA ? Lit some candles ? Thanks.
Your Friend,
Derek
Derek
Dear Naim,
Yes, I am sorry to agree with you. You may be naive and idealistic. In your article, you mentioned, “Forever Jews have been thrown out.” The actuality is “thrown out” or killed. And, for no good reason that I can see. I have known some Jews…funny, quirky, intelligent…but, always good neighbors.
And, yes, Jews are peaceful. Try doing a web search for, “Jewish empire”. You won’t find anything. Look for “Jewish conquerors”. You won’t find anything. Now look for “Christian empire”, or “Islamic empire”, and you will find plenty. Now look for “Christian conquerors” and “Islamic conquerors”. You will find plenty. So, Jews have the oldest history, but the least Empires and Conquerors. Please stop feeling so guilty.
Now, the Jews have a nation, Israel, where they can guarantee their own safety. For thousands of years, Jews didn’t have a home, and what happened ? Kicked out or killed. But, now, you have a home. Will you defend it ? Will you allow your children to be kicked out or killed ? It isn’t free. It isn’t easy. Israel is surronded on all sides by enemies.
Now, Iran wants to make a nuclear weapon. How do I know ? Iran gave the plans, how to cast and form, the core of a nuclear warhead to….The New York Times. The Government of Iran gave that information….after a few years… ,and making copies, of course.
So, Israelis can wish for peace all they want. I’m sure they wished for peace thousands of years ago. But, for peace to happen, all sides of a conflict need to wish for it. Hamas doesn’t. Fatah doesn’t. Iran doesn’t. I doubt Jordan wishes for peace either. So, Good luck.
Derek
Derek,
how angelic your government is ! Is that your DIVINE mission ? Chosen People of America ! Chosen People of Israel ! The Roman Popes pretended to spread welfare too, they, who walked in an aura of light, incapable of failure, “sincerely eager to teach love – that of the devil”.
You are a good Patriot Derek – a SERVANT. You blindly serve the ILLUSION OF COLLECTIVE POWER instead of affirming your OWN Liberty. The Liberty to say NO.
I guess it will not reach you in your Iron Tower, but DID YOU KNOW that our wonderful saviours, the American soldiers of 1944, raped a lot of French and English women ? Our helpers, our saviors !
There is a study about it in USA with judgements from the US Army, but I think it was censored.
In fact, losing 30 men where one British or American soldier fell, the Soviets contributed much more to the defeat of Germany than our so called ‘Liberators’.
yours sincerely,
V.
Derek, your nationalism is quite absurd. What are you talking about with this humanitarian aid? Everyone on earth is involved in humanitarianism, not just America. In fact you are trying to show the world (quite unsuccessfully) that America is somehow superior in terms of providing donations and help, which is far from the case.
Americans aren’t the only ones involved in such things. Arabs and Muslims, too, did a lot for America – including our governments.
Let me remind you who donated in a recent time of American crisis, during Katrina. Saudi Arabia only paid 1 billion, and Qatar, another Muslim country, only donated millions as well as a new wing for a hospital (which is actually named after the country.) Oman also contributed millions in aid, and I can ask you the same questions, what did the USA ever do to help during the cyclone crisis there? As far as I know, they contributed absolutely nothing. And even if they did, if they’re going to help with like 5 million dollars while the Muslim world is donating billions and hospitals, well then your argument of Americans being morally superior to us is really a weak one.
So please, you are not fooling anyone with your superiority complex. America did more damage than good in our region (5 million dollars for an earthquake is nothing compared to the weapons they gave for our nations to kill each other, not to mention the environmental crisis they caused here with their militaries), and this is not an anti-American statement, it is from someone who has lived through many of America’s bad policy decisions and is quite sick of the “Americans are racially and morally superior” argument. You are inviting a lot of racism through your petty words. Have some shame in what you are trying to portray. You mentioned nothing about Mohammad’s argument and began attacking his nationality and country, what an immature thing to do from someone who claims to be so ethical and helpful and moral. You really do not see the irony in your statements at all?
We are not interested in who’s better. Individuals make a difference. Countries often don’t, and if you want to get involved in that race for who’s morally better in the world, frankly we get more aid from Europe than the USA and that does not mean that Europeans are more superior. It just means that in every part of the world there are decent human beings, and then there are evil human beings, and this does not come down to nationality or faith. It comes down to the core of who you really are. So don’t try and shove those stats down our throat and try to make us forget all the damage that has happened in your country’s name; it won’t work.
And what’s this nonsense about you saying Hamas and Jordan don’t want peace or whatever? What exactly is your implication?
The US government does not want peace (hence Iraq and the Gulf Wars, and the threats against Iran.)
It is American civilians who want peace (many of them anyways,) and the Iranian civilians, and the Israeli civilians, and the Palestinian civilians as opposed to their governments, who often have nothing to do with their nations. Try to be smarter than trying to lump everyone by what their governments represent, all the while with a holier-than-thou attitude.
Nationalism sucks. So does racism. Get over yourself.
There are words, and there are actions. We can throw words at each other all day long, but that won’t take us very far. Or we can instead create realities on the ground which speak louder than words.
Take Israel, for example. There is a flury of words everytime you mention Israel by name. Some people like her, and some people hate her. But Israel, her people, and her government, are committed to the survival of the Jewish state. In their attempt to survive, they will sometimes do things which are not justified, and which are not in keeping with the principles on which the country was founded. However, on the whole, and in light of Jewish history, I think that Israelis have done what they needed to do to survive, while attempting to keep the injustices to a minimum, as judged by the threats and injustices they faced. But you could argue with me on that.
But all that is just words. We can talk back and forth on who is right and who is wrong. It won’t get us anywhere. If you want peace, and that’s a big “if,” because we may think we want peace, but we talk at one another as if we’re at war, but if you really want peace, then do something real to makes it happen.
The way to peace is not all that complicated: Talk to one another with common sense and with a sense of personal dignity. Invest in one another to create jobs which protect the environment. Use a new ideology and some serious investment dollars to inspire one another with a sense of hope. Sustain the hope with public diplomacy. And when necessary, and it will be necessary, fight, and fight hard against the forces of extremism, but also position the fight within a vision of hope. Raise the fight on the ground to a higher moral plain by giving the fight a moral clarity of purpose.
This is the way to peace. You may have some better ides. We can all be open to that. But it’s time, before time runs out, to make something happen, something more substantive than just talk.
Interesting how discussions about Israel always seem to end up as discussions about America…
To the point at hand, however, I’m sure that all Israelis aren’t bad. However, Israel as a nation does have some issues that need addressing. The refugee and occupied territory problem that the creation of Israel engendered has yet to be addressed, even though the world around it has gone far to settle many other similar disputes. There are now generations of refugees in permanent camps in the countries and territories surrounding Israel, who exist in a state of limbo, not citizens, not voters, but able to eke out an existence.
The “nation” of the Palestinian territories have no control over their borders, airspace, or ports, and live in basically prison conditions, with a GDP permanently dependant on foreign aid. Even within Israel, there are segregations in respect to ID cards, passports and service in military fields on the basis of religion. To all those who suffer under these conditions, to those who support them and service them, to those who guard against them, it is perfectly clear that all of these conditions find their origin in the existence of the state of Israel.
Since Israel is a democracy(for those allowed to vote), these conditions therefore are a reflection of the will of the people of Israel. Yes, the religion-based hostility between Muslims and Jews plays a part. Yes, the Hamas government, the Iranian government, Hezbollah, and many other political and militant groups make no secret of their desire to destroy the nation of Israel. And yes, this will undoubtably take the form of a massacre of the Jewish population given the loathsome philosophy of relating compulsory military service to culpability. But many of the arguments here quite rightly point out that it is not enough for a nation to excuse it’s policies on the basis of the hostility of it’s opponents. One cannot justify or excuse human rights violations and suffering because of “self-defence” or “being a strong nation”. Truckloads of food and blankets will never erase an image of torture and injustice.
If Israelis are such good people, if they have been tempered on the forge of history in the fires of oppression and mistreatment, then why haven’t they found a way to end the suffering of the peoples that they displaced in forming their nation? Is it not their, and their sponsors responsibility? Why is it acceptable to spend nearly a trillion dollars fighting a pointless war and occupation and unacceptable to do no more than keep up welfare payments and ammo costs for this issue?
I think that people around the world have quite a bit of respect for the ideals that both the US and Israel aspire to, and have sympathy for whatever trials that they have been through. At the same time, the glaring hypocracy of their conduct in this and many other areas is the cause of the deep disillusionment, suspicion, and outright hostility that their defenders seem to be experiencing.
Just because a person tries to kill someone and fails doesn’t mean he’s not guilty. He will be charged with attempted murder instead of murder.
Farbentod (France),
You wrote,
“I guess it will not reach you in your Iron Tower, but DID YOU KNOW that our wonderful saviours, the American soldiers of 1944, raped a lot of French and English women ? Our helpers, our saviors !
There is a study about it in USA with judgements from the US Army, but I think it was censored.
In fact, losing 30 men where one British or American soldier fell, the Soviets contributed much more to the defeat of Germany than our so called ‘Liberators’.”
I know the Soviets lost more men in the whole war. That does NOTHING to change the fact that France was liberated by Americans. Now, about Americans raping French and English women. Can you provide any sources or proof ? I’ll bet you have no proof. I’ll bet you are just saying that because you don’t like America. However, I can provide sources that Soviet soldiers raped german women. So, once again, you should be thankful that is was America that liberated your country.
Don’t forget to provide those sources
Your Friend,
Derek
Is that really true, Eric? I would agree with you that there are things that shouldn’t be done, even in the name of self-defense. But there are things which can be done, even if they cause suffering, and even if they constitute human rights violations.
I’ll give you an example. Suppose you were a Jew on your way to an extermination camp during the Holocaust. Would you have the right to blow up a school, even a school attended by the children of the Nazis who ran the camp? I say no. Your right to defend yourself does not allow you the right to intentionally kill innocent children. You should go to your death with dignity, rather than stoop to that level.
But things aren’t always black and white. Suppose you catch a terrorist who just planted a bomb in some mall. Are you allowed to cause him to suffer, to torture him, so as to extract the information which could save the life of innocent people? Here the answer is not as simple.
Suppose you see a band of terrorists ready to launch a missle at a populated city. Are you allowed to take them out, even if an innocent bystander may get killed? Again, not so simple.
These gray areas is where Israel is at. Sometimes Israel calls it right, and sometimes she calls it wrong. But as you admit, she is beset by enemies who want her dead. And when you’re up against that, day in and day out, you’re going to call the shots as you see them, and when there’s a doubt, you’re going to err on the side of security, on the side of defending you life.
That points to the internal contradiction in your argument. On the one hand you admit that Israel is surrounded by enemies who wouldn’t blink an eye at her destruction. On the other hand, you wonder why she isn’t able to negotiate peace. Therein is the problem. How can you negotiate with someone who wants you dead?
Israel has evidenced a willingess to negotiate: Egypt hinted at peace, and peace became a reality. So too with Jordan. Syria is hinting at the possibility of peace, and Israel is not saying no. Hamas wanted a truce, and Israel, at least for now, is playing along. Arafat hinted at peace, and Barak put a very attractive offer on the table in the year 2000.
I am with you that peace is possible, and that it is incumbent on Israel to do everything in her power to make something happen along these lines. I also believe that Israel could be doing a lot more to enhance the prospect of peace. But I think it’s unfair to point only to Israel, when the writing is on the wall that there are powerful forces out there who will do everything in their power to prevent peace from happening, because peace will spell their demise. What will they shout about when they don’t have the Israeli/Palestinian issue to shout about?
Hello Dear
Great to know your point of view. I am Pakistani and no body in Pakistan says that Israli are bad people but there approach for tha land is bad. As you sad, no country was agreed to give you even a small peace of land to stay but the conutry, Palestine, gave you space to even grow your nation, you did what with these people. Occupied all of their land and killing their sons, kidds a rapping their daughters. You dont know the reality. If you have a courge and want to know. contact me via your email ID. I will send you a little bit material regarding your great response to your well wisher.
Regards
Muhammad, as you can well imagine, I take issue with your interpretation of history.
When you say that Palestine gave the Jews “space to even grow your nation,” I would point out that Palestine was not a country at the time. In addition, the land was not given, but a great deal of it was purchased by Jews from absentee Arab landlords.
Jews did not begin by occupying anyone’s land. Before the state was declared, a division of the land was offered by the United Nations. The Jews accepted the plan, and the Arabs refused, which eventually led to Israel’s War of Independence, after she was invaded by five Arab armies.
To the best of my knowledge, there was no mass raping of Arab women by Jews. If there were such incidents, then they were morally wrong, and not justifiable.
But I would say this, Muhammad: even though history is important, I don’t think we should bury ourselves in history. You and I are among the living, and therefore we owe it to ourselves and to our children to look to the future, and to negotiate a peace that would make that future worth living.
I believe in Selling a Vision of Hope, which has 5 pieces to it, like the 5 fingers of your hand:
Ideology: Use an Ideology of Common Sense to speak to one another with common sense and with a sense of personal dignity.
Investment: Invest in one another to create jobs which protect the environment.
Hope: Use Ideology and Investment to sell one another on a Vision of Hope, a Vision of Peace, Prosperity, and Freedom.
Public Diplomacy: Sustain the hope by launching a series of Public Diplomacy Programs which are specifically designed to prop a Vision of Hope up and to carry it forward.
The Willingness to Fight: If you already have to fight against the forces of extremism, then fight, and fight, hard, but also position the fight within a Vision of Hope. Elevate the fight on the ground to a higher moral plain by giving the fight a moral clarity of purpose. People will fight harder once they know what they’re fighting for. We are not fighting a “war against terror.” We are fighting a war to realize a Vision of Hope. There’s a big difference.
Muhammad, you can read about this in more detail, and contact me, at http://www.sellingavisionofhope.org I would suggest to you, if I may, that an approach of this sort will get us further along toward peace, than rehashing history.
Regards to you as well.