So if you are gay, then be gay. Do not call yourself a muslim gay. Muslim is not a race. It is a follower of faith of Islam. Being gay make you happy, then be gay. Do not try to be gay and muslim at the same time because it is clear and loud for the past 1400 years, there is no room for homosexuality in Islam. The punishment is hell fire. You are not welcome in the masjids, etc.

If you want to be muslim, then ask for God forgiveness and do not be gay.

Yet, I don’t understand why a Muslim person needs to believe in a concept that is purely homophobic. You better believe in a philosophy…such as Existentialism.

Still (going back to point one), no one is to decide whether someone wants to call him/herself Muslim or not.

Book Suggestions:
A Nausea

Why do you complicate it with needs, rights, wants, desires and other philosophical endless debates.

Cheers,

On the subject of chronology (and I know this won’t win any points with you for the Baha’i Faith), the Baha’i Faith was established in the mid-19th Century. So that ancient homophobes argument, though compelling, does apply for us Baha’is.

And while I don’t think I have much of anything to say since basically all my thoughts are out there already – what is “against the rules” in the Baha’i faith is the misuse of the sexual impulse, which is to use it outside of the context of two married individuals and for the purpose of having a family (this means masturbation is also a misuse). It’s really all about the family I suppose.

Anyway Simon I hope you can appreciate the challenging position us religious folks can be in. I understand your atheist point of view (as I was once an atheist) and hope I haven’t added too much to your frustration with this intolerant world.
Cheers

Well, they are equal to Catholic priests – but who else?

“If sex is for procreation and it needs to be done within marriage to have strong families upon which society is built… well that makes sense.”

Yes, but that’s not the reality we’re living in. It’s the reality of those ancient times the three religions of the books were founded.
And that is why the religions’ rules need to change: Because the times, the people they are made for have changed. Yes, I’m saying the religions are made for the people, not the humans for the religions.
I know, that’s the view of an Atheist. But if the religion doesn’t serve one [in being a good human or whatever the goal of the religion is], it fails. And if a religion doesn’t accept the equality of all humans, it fails, because it can’t serve them.
That means: If a religion doesn’t accept homosexuals – and to say, only gay sex isn’t allowed is picking words, those men who wrote these religious texts were homophobes, no doubt – it is not worth to be accepted by them, nor by anyone else who can accept them.

Because after all, homosexuality or gay sex doesn’t hurt anyone or cause any damage. The only ones who feel hurt are those hypocrites who get angry at those who disrespect their “moral values”, which are in fact sinful values – sinful as in hate. But still, religions keep teaching: Homosexuality is bad.
And why? Because some men eons ago established a rule they felt to be necessary? Ha. That’s certainly why an intelligent citizen of the 21. century has to deny homosexual their rights.

Basically I think one of the things that makes the issue so tricky [if you are not looking at the texts in a way that they can be altered/reinterpreted] is how you view relationships. If relationships are about finding your soul mate, Mr./Mrs. Right, or blindly following your heart – then this all seems rather horrible. But if a relationship is about creating a life with a partner, which takes a lot of investment and hard work, and from a religious perspective also involves appropriate worshiping of God… then it doesn’t seem that terrible to not be a guy and marry Mr.Right. I’m not from a culture where arranged marriages are at all common, but I have, over time, received the impression that they can be quite successful when you are devoted to your partner, and an incredible love can develop between them even if they didn’t meet till their wedding. Anyone please correct me if I am wrong there.

Thanks for your feedback Simon. This is the most challenging part of my Faith and I am enjoying the discussion enormously [although arguably now having to be chaste until marriage which I was certainly not before becoming a Baha'i is perhaps a more pertinent issue in my day-to-day life].

Cheers

But if sacred texts like the Quran and Bible were altered, then they would be products of man and not divinely inspired. Given that these religious are centered around God and his pefection, it does not seem possible to change them. Who is man to correct God? Boys are born with foreskin…yet in Judaism and I think in Islam (not sure though) they are to have it removed. Also, Christian children have to be baptized. These religions do not claim that you are born perfect. There are special laws for different groups of people within a religious community (men, women, children, clergy). Some of these groups are based on characteristics determined by birth and some not.

Well, I liked most of what you wrote – as much as I can like a text about religion, which I personally dislike – but these sentences seem very, very wrong to me.

That is because of the point of view you have: You accept homosexuality, which is good. But you accept it as a sin, and that is not much of a solution. Homosexuals are born homosexual. They can’t do anything about it.

Would you like to be called a sinner just because you have black hair? Or a huge nose?

That’s why I say religions have to change. Not just in the question of homosexuality, but in every question where they deny the equality of every human being.

I’m a Canadian and not a Muslim but as a Baha’i I face a similar issue in that the Baha’i Faith explicitly forbids acts of homosexual sexuality. I did not grow up Baha’i but rather in a family of values and principles not defined by a faith so much as our own culture and values, but began studying the world religions as a teenager and continue on to this day but I have recently become a Baha’i. As a student of world religions I learned from all of them leading to personal spiritual growth and even though I felt a strong pull to Islam I could not, in good conscience, convert to any one faith [until I was introduced to the Baha'i Faith]. But having followed up path free from such explicit commands as homosexuality is forbidden, I have a very tolerant view on homosexuality which is a very common part of life here on the west coast of Canada. When I became a Baha’i this was one of the things I struggled the most with and here is how I coped from my liberal western upbringing…

As someone mentioned earlier, what is forbidden is homosexual sexual acts. I’m assuming they have it right from the Muslim point of view, and that is how it is in the Baha’i Faith [the top was inquired about and so there is a lot explained and thus no wiggle room in the "rule if one were to look for it] and, if I remember correctly, where it states this in the Christian Bible, in the Old Testament, it says “Thou shalt not lie with a man as if he be a women” – or something to that effect. Love is ok, but sexuality is reserved for the institution of marriage because it’s purpose is procreation. And as society’s are based on the institution of the family, the family needs to be strong and thus we have these guidelines.
But part of what helps me cope in this liberal society is that we are supposed to love everyone, good or bad, no matter their choices. Obviously drinking alcohol is extremely common here and I’ve had to give it up, but I don’t judge someone else for their drinking. Why wouldn’t they drink? They are not following a set of guidelines that says they shouldn’t. The same with homosexuality.
Why homosexuality exists if it is against God’s wishes is something that this issue caused me to contemplate. The best answer I can see is related to the challenges we all face. The Baha’i view on the purpose of life, and I feel this sentiment is shared in Islam, is to develop spiritual qualities and draw closer to God – and following God’s intentions for us is part of developing spiritual qualities and virtues. We are all born into different socioeconomic situations and I believe this is because, as we are all unique individuals, we have needs for different challenges to help us grow spiritually. For example, if you need to learn generosity it would be far better for you to be born into wealth that poverty. I can’t fathom the challenges that homosexuals face when their Faith forbids acting on their own instinctual urges, but I hope that facing those challenges helps them grow spiritually.

Lastly I would like to agree with Hasan… I believe any of us have the right to deny someone their Faith. If when converting to Islam or the Baha’i faith you had to instantaneously follow ALL the rules of the faith… it would be impossible. It’s a journey over our lives to bring ourselves in accordance with [our understanding of] God’s wishes. And who can know if some rules are of higher priority than others. I’ve learned some of the greatest benefit is in following the rules so that we are not slaves to our own impulses and urges (freedom through submission – seems counter intuitive). You can be a homosexual of faith, but at the end of the day you’ll have to find a way to deal with the reality that your faith teaches you it’s wrong.

شكرا

>Sounds a lot like “If them Ayrabs and Mooslems won’t live by “our” Western standards, they should go back to where they came from”

Difference is the West preaches freedom because of which they must let Arabs and Muslims live as they wish to. If you live in an Islamic country however you must live by its laws. If you do not want to live by its laws its in your best interest to live in some other land.

You can call yourself a Muslim if you’re gay. I have no authority to call you a non Muslim. I have no problem with that so long as you don’t make it my onus as a Muslim to report you because you expressly engage in homosexual activities. It is very clear that Islam forbids homosexuality.

>If you don’t agree [...] You should go to a society where homosexuality is >acceptable.
Sounds a lot like “If them Ayrabs and Mooslems won’t live by “our” Western standards, they should go back to where they came from”

No, outcasting others won’t do..

No one can change what the messengers reveal. I agree, but people often make their own way. This is unstoppable–whether for good or bad–that’s between them and God.

I have known religious individuals who claim the devil created homosexuals…the theory behind that is that the devil tries to mock and pervert the intentions of the divine. Thus divine creation would fit divine word.

On the other hand, I have met people who claim that the state of being homosexual is not a sin – only acts of homosexuality are. This, of course, means that straight individuals who engage in homosexual sex (oftentimes in jail) are more sinful than celibate gays in this regard. What are the specific verses regarding gays in the Quran (and the Bible for that matter)?

“What, if reality, God’s creation, and the Quran, his words, don’t fit to each other?”

How do you know it doesn’t? You only know what you percieve to be real with your five senses and your brain. All of these features are deemed imperfect in all three abrahamic religions (humans are by nature viewed as flawed). Thus, from the perspective of a devout Jew/Christian/Muslim, there is no way for you to be sure what is actually divine creation and what isn’t? How does the imperfect comprehend the perfect? Also, if humans are imperfect than the languages they use are imperfect. What is written down cannot fully encompass what any prophet might have actually witnessed by being in divine presence. It is merely an inefficient conduit for divine messages. How do we really know what is expected of us by the lord? Our perception can distort divine presence while scripture can distort divine meaning.

Food for thought. I think I went off topic. Sorry.

God created nothing, afaik. But that’s another question… if you say God created every creature in pairs – well, God created homosexuals, too. You can’t really deny this fact, can you?
And if the Quran states something about homosexuals – shouldn’t that be more important than the facts (that God created whatever)?
What, if reality, God’s creation, and the Quran, his words, don’t fit to each other?