Secondly, if you don’t know about Kurdish history, it’s OK to admit that, right off the bat. Better to admit what you don’t know, than to pretend to be an expert on something you know nothing about.

Let’s assume for the moment, that the equities of the matter are exactly as you say. Let’s say that the Kurds are 100% right on the matter, and that Turkey has no legitimate argument to make.

If that’s the case, then you deserve to win. You deserve to be vindicated, and made whole. The question then becomes: How do you accomplish that? Are you going to win by going against an army that is far stronger than you? Or are there other levers of power that you could pull, even if, as you say, there is no democratic structures in place for such an effort?

In South Africa, which you are right to say was different, there were also no democratic structures in place to vent opposition to apartheid. And yet, people found ways to make their will known. In the final analysis, the will of the people cannot be deterred. And after a while, the pressure against the white regime became overwhelming, and impossible to resist, despite the fact that the regime possessed sophisticated weaponry.

You could say, if you wish, that you have nothing to learn from South Africa, because it was a different situation. But my sense is that we can all learn from one another, because in one way or another, we all share the same truth. There aren’t different varieties of truth. There is truth. That’s it. And it’s up to us to use our common sense to come to terms with the truth that sits there before us, staring us all in the face.

The reason I talk with you about the Kurds, even you seem to know a great deal, and I admit to know very little, is because I believe in bringing together all the pieces of the human dilemma, which lie scattered all around us. Like you say, the Kurdish problem is largely ignored. That’s not right. Human suffering is human suffering. We can’t pretend that each incident of human suffering fits into nicely wrapped packages, and that each situation is vastly different from all others. Sooner or later, all things come together, and must be dealt with honestly and justly.

There are things that Kurds could be doing, short of violence, that could help make a difference, and that would be more in keeping with the justice of their cause. And the same applies to all people who carry the heavy weight of injustice upon their shoulders.

Here we have a bunch of people who, by their own admission, don’t know ANYTHING about Kurdish history (except Kazo), and they are condescendingly “supposing” that a Kurd might know something about Kurdish history, particularly when it comes to the Kurdish Freedom Movement.

That sounds intensely racist.

Then there are the lies of the Ankara regime which are swallowed whole around here. I mean, we all know that the Washington regime lied its way into Iraq, so is it not possible that the Ankara regime does the same thing regarding its war in Turkish-occupied Kurdistan?

Oh, yeah, and it IS, in fact, a war. Official government lapdogs like every mainstream media organization is quick to point out Turkish bombing of South Kurdistan, but they haven’t told you a damned thing about the F-16s they’re using right now to bomb Şırnak, do they? Having returned from THAT war zone last month, I can tell you that this is exactly what the Ankara regime is doing.

Go ahead and believe every little item you read in official government propaganda organs like Reuters and BBC. But let me ask you this: Why were no police on the scene of the bombing in Güngören until after the second detonation? There was a ten-minute period between the first and second bombings, but no police present and this in a police state. So why weren’t they there? There are three police stations in Güngören, all of them able to cover the area within five minutes but no one was there to secure the crime scene. Why?

You don’t believe me, do you, because, after all, what would I know about Turkey, or Turkish history, or Kurds or Kurdish history, or the PKK? Take a look at a home video shot by a resident of Güngören. It lasts about two minutes, so we can estimate that this person began filming 8 or 9 minutes after the first detonation. Do you see any flashing blue lights? Any police vehicles? Any police? And the police didn’t make the casualty list, did they?

So why weren’t they there?

Because, like so many times in the past, the police KNEW about the attack and didn’t bother to show up until AFTER it was all over.

But, of course, if you knew anything about Turkish history, if you knew anything about the Deep State or Gladio, you would know to finger the regime as the first suspect in this kind of event.

You would also stop preaching about so-called “peaceful” or “democratic” means of effecting change for Kurds in Turkey because there is NO political avenue open to do this. You would stop your ignorant comparisons with Palestinians or South Africans using public opinion to effect change because the world does not give care what happens to Kurds. Proof? When have you heard the Kurdish side of any of the things you quote here (from official hostile government propaganda organs or Wikipedia)?

There is a reference here made to the Beytuşşebap massacre which is a verbatim quote from the Ankara regime. But if you knew about Güçlükonak, you would know that this piece of propaganda should be carefully examined and you should have also examined HPG’s statement on the massacre because then you would have learned something about the reality of Turkish-occupied Kurdistan in the last twenty-four years, at least. You would have known that 7 of those massacred were Village Guards. You would have known that the TSK massacred the passengers of that minibus in order to stir up the Village Guards, who’ve been abandoning their weapons in record numbers. You would have known that HPG has had a truce with the Village Guards for some time. But that’s the problem here, isn’t it? You DON’T know any of this and you DON’T know about Güçlükonak. You swallowed the Ankara regime’s little Blue Pill, just like it wanted you to.

And why do you cry over the deaths of 13 Turkish soldiers? What do you think they’re doing in Turkish-occupied Kurdistan? I can guarantee you, they’re not there for a tea party. And since you’re referring to the Oramar (Dağlıca) operation here (in which, actually 21 TSKers were killed–but you didn’t read that news either, did you?) why didn’t you mention the treatment HPG used with the 8 prisoners it took during that operation and contrast it with the treatment meted out to them by their own regime, whose uniforms they were wearing and which they were serving?

Yet you justify your so-called “support” of the Kurdish people under the brutal Ankara regime by thinking that most of them don’t support or identify with PKK? Well, then, you can forget about your support because everybody, and I mean EVERYBODY, has, at this moment, or has had AT least one relative in the mountains or AT LEAST one relative who died wearing a PKK uniform.

And now that everyone in Turkish-occupied Kurdistan knows that Turkey, the US, Israel, Iran, and Iraq are cooperating together against them and their relatives in the mountains, morale for the guerrillas is high and PKK has never been stronger.

I guess you missed all of that news, too, because it wasn’t reported in “legitimate” propaganda organs like Reuters, BBC, NY Times, etc., ad nauseum.

Then there is no mention here of the fact that the Washington and Ankara regime rejected outright HPG’s recent ceasefire, from September 2006. There’s no mention here of the fact that the “PKK coordinator” at the time was Joseph Ralston, registered lobbyist through The Cohen Group with the US Senate to sell Lockheed Martin’s tactical fighter aircraft, advisory board member of the American Turkish Council, member of the board of directors of Lockheed Martin. Nor is there any mention that, at the time of Ralston’s appointment as “PKK coordinator” for Turkey, Turkey was in the process of purchasing $10 billion worth of brand new Lockheed Martin F-35 aircraft. And not long after that deal was, in fact, sealed, Ralston stepped down as “PKK coordinator” for Turkey.

See how cheap Kurdish blood is?

But, hey, swallow the Blue Pill, go back to sleep, and believe whatever you want to believe.

I believe any form of violence hurts a movement

I think that’s the main point that Esra’a is making here.

Please excuse my ignorance of the Kurdish history. However, I’m talking theoretically here.

Suppose that Kazo is right in saying that the PKK was brought into existence due to the injustice that was perpetrated against the Kurds in Turkey.

When confronting injustice, the tactics used are often as important as the cause itself.

For example, if you go about killing innocent civilians, in the name of your cause, how can you then complain about injustice, when it is you who resorts to unjust means? Doesn’t the violence undercut the validity of your cause. Or doesn’t it at least seem that way.

Here’s another example. In Israel, some 20% of the population is Arab, and these people do suffer from discrimination, even though they also enjoy many of the rights and privileges of citizenship. If the Israeli Arabs decide to persue their cause through violence against innocent civilians, then Israel would retaliate in kind, and many people in the world would justify such retaliation. In other words, violence, as Esra’a says, hurts the cause.

If, on the other hand, Israeli Arabs fight for their rights in other ways, such as in the media, or in the courts, or in the realm of public opinion, etc, as they are doing, then change eventually will come, as is happening today, but in a way that is consistent with the nobility of the cause.

Remember South Africa. A lot of violence and injustice was perpetrated against blacks. However, I don’t recall a civil war, or mass executions of whites. Leaders like Mendela did create a lot of domestic and international pressure, and eventually brought about a change of epic proportions. But they did not really play the violence card in any significant way. And after he won, Mendela did not advocate revenge, but rather, reconciliation.

I think that Esra’a is right. Forget the moral considerations for a moment. Violence is not the best way to effectuate change, especially on behalf of the underdog. It is better, whenever possible, to use other means, even if change comes slower. You want your tactics to be consistent with the nobility of your cause, and killing innocents doesn’t cut it when it is justice you’re after.

However, you would have noticed that I didn’t quote Wikipedia directly, I only used it as the vehicle for other sources. I quoted this source within Wikipedia.

Ocalan: Greeks supplied Kurdish rebels”, BBC (1999-06-02). Retrieved on 2007-09-01.

I believe any form of violence hurts a movement. It’s also unfair to dismiss groups and articles for being propaganda-ridden just because they are against the PKK yet utterly pro-Kurds.

You can still be pro-Kurdish human rights and anti-PKK.

The following actions are deplorable (notice, this BBC profile does state all the ceasefire and negotiation attempts, and does state that they attempted to put their weapons down several times if Turkey was willing to listen to their demands, so I will not dismiss this one as propaganda as it places a lot of blame on the Turkish government):

A group said to be an offshoot of the PKK, calling itself the Kurdistan Freedom Falcons, has claimed responsibility for a number of bomb blasts in Istanbul and Turkish Mediterranean resorts. The group also swears allegiance to Ocalan.

And the last few years have also seen the rise of a sister organisation – Pejak – which has carried out attacks against Iran.

(Source)

Two recent attacks – the killing of 13 Turkish soldiers in a single clash and the killing of 12 civilians in a bus ambush - were regarded as being among the worst over recent years.

None of these innocent lives deserved to die for any cause.

http://www.kurdish-info.net/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=3467

It is rather funny that you cited an article that clearly states right from the beginning that the PKK signed the “Geneva Call Deed of Commitment”, which bans the use of anti-personnel land mines. To my knowledge, the PKK has observed this treaty while Iraqi officials have found proof of the Turkish military’s continued use of these landmines – particularly, that they have laid another couple of hundred in the village areas around the northern most areas of Iraqi Kurdistan.

Esra’a, I am in no way going to deny the fact that the PKK has targeted certain civilians, such as Turkish government workers, in the past. This is true, however, these tactics have not been employed by the PKK for at least a decade. A sad point to make is that despite proof revealed about bombings like Semdinli or that in Diyarbakir, which were initially blamed by the PKK and then later proven to be the works of Turkish officers, the western media and these so-called human rights orgs somehow tend to miss these facts and still blame the PKK in their reports. I’d also like to point out that these claims are making are not conspiracies. These were proven and documented by the Turkish courts themselves (example: Source) but the investigations/trials were never fully out because the Turkish general blew them out like a flame on a candle and made sure the prosecutors never practiced law again.

Secondly, it’s rather silly to be quoting Wikipedia, a site that can be edited by any source. I said you should research with full objectivity, something you definitely cannot do when citing such sources. PKK has fought with two specific groups in Turkey, the Turkish Hizbollah (a group who some radical Islamic Kurds are members of and was manufactured by the Turkish government and later responsible for the assassination of countless Kurdish rights activists and politicians) and with the Kurdish village guards. The village guards have collaborated with the Turkish military for their own profit. These people are hardly innocent like you are claiming, and obviously, they will be treated just like the hostile Turkish military. They are one of the same.

By the way, I suggest you read the PKK ceasefire terms and conditions to lay down their arms. Their requests are the same as the requests the EU has made of Turkey and are all in line with international law. Their requests are all human rights and things that the Turkish regime has refused to grant the Kurdish people.