New group of High School seniors refuse to serve in the IDF !!
August 22nd, 2008I’m part of the mailing list of New Profile – A Movement for the Civil-ization of Israeli Society through which I get continuous updates about many events, articles, news that are mostly not published in the mainstream media. Today I received a message of particular interest, which I want to post here in it’s full extent:
CO Udi Nir sentenced to 21 days in military prison
- Please distribute widely -
Dear Friends,
CO Udi Nir, 19, from the Tel-Aviv suburb of Hertzlia, has been sentenced yesterday (20 Aug. ) to 21 days in military prison.
Udi Nir is the first conscientious objector to be imprisoned among a new group of high school seniors, who signed a collective declaration of refusal to serve in the Israeli army of occupation. He has been called up to enlist this Monday, 18 Aug., but planned to delay his imprisonment (technically – by going AWOL) to join other signatories of the letter. This intention, however, was noted by the press (Udi appeared in a TV feature and a negative newspaper feature over the weekend). This resulted in what was arguably the quickest operation of its sort in Israel’s history. On Tuesday, one day after he has not showed up at the Induction Base, Udi Nir was arrested by civilian police (itself an unprecedented move), and was subsequently given a conditional sentence of 6 days in prison. The following day he was again tried, this time for refusing an order to enlist, and was sentenced to 21 days in prison.
A small demonstration to protest Udi’s imprisonment was organised by other members of the high school seniors group (see images below), and has received some media coverage.
In a brief statement made on the day of his arrest, Udi Nir said:
I cannot take part in the activities of an occupying army, which constantly violates human rights. As an Israeli citizen and as an adolescent liable for enlistment I feel a sense of extensive responsibility for the cycle of violence and for all the choices I am making. It is out of this sense of responsibility that I refuse to enter the cycle of bloodshed and to add fuel to the fire of hatred raging here. I refuse to enlist into an occupying army so that I will not lend my own hand to the occupation and to acts that contradict my most basic values: human rights, democracy and the personal responsibility each and every human being bears towards fellow human beings.
Udi’s full declaration of refusal, sent in a letter to the Minister of Defence, can be read here.
Udi’s intention is to refuse to wear a military uniform in prison, which means he would be, or has already been, transferred to the Isolation Ward of the prison. He is due to be released from prison on 7 Sept. and is very likely to be imprisoned again several times after his release.
His prison address is:
Udi Nir
Military ID 6022372
Military Prison No. 6
Military Postal Code 01860, IDF
Israel
Fax: ++972-4-9540580
Since the prison authorities often block mail from reaching imprisoned objectors, we also recommend you to send your letters of support and encouragement to Udi via e-mail to shministim@gmail.com, and they will be printed out and delivered to him during visits.
In addition, you may want to follow some of our recommendations for action below.
Recommended Action
First of all, please circulate this message and the information contained in it as widely as possible, not only through e-mail, but also on websites, conventional media, by word of mouth, etc.
Other recommendations for action:
1. Sending Letters of Support
Please send Udi letters of support (preferably postcards or by fax) to the prison address above.
2. Letters to Authorities
It is recommended to send letters of protest on Udi’s behalf, preferably by fax, to:
Mr. Ehud Barak,
Minister of Defence, Ministry of Defence,
37 Kaplan St.,
Tel-Aviv 61909 – Israel
E-mail: sar@mod.gov.il or pniot@mod.gov.il
Fax: ++972-3-696-27-57 / ++972-3-691-69-40 / ++972-3-691-79-15
The War Resisters’ International set up a web-based mailing service, through which you can send a standard e-mail letter (with added comments) to the Israeli Minister of Defence on Udi’ behalf. The form is available on the WRI website
Copies of your letters can also be sent to the commander of the military prison at:
Commander of Military Prison No. 6,
Military Prison No. 6,
Military postal number 01860, IDF
Israel
Fax: ++972-4-9540580
Another useful address for sending copies would be the Military Attorney General:
Avichai Mandelblit,
Chief Military Attorney
Military postal code 9605, IDF
Israel
Fax: ++972-3-569-43-70
It would be especially useful to send your appeals to the Commander of the Induction Base in Tel-HaShomer. It is this officer that ultimately decides whether an objector is to be exempted from military service or sent to another round in prison, and it is the same officer who is ultimately in charge of the military Conscience Committee:
Gadi Agmon,
Commander of Induction Base,
Meitav, Tel-HaShomer
Military Postal Code 02718, IDF
Israel.
Fax: ++972-3-737-60-52
For those of you who live outside Israel, it would be very effective to send protests to your local Israeli embassy. You can find the address of your local embassy on the web.
Here is a sample letter, which you can use, or better adapt, in sending appeals to authorities on the prisoners’ behalf:
Dear Sir/Madam,
It has come to my attention that Udi Nir, Military ID 6022372, a conscientious objector, has been imprisoned for his refusal to perform military service, and is held in Military Prison No. 6.
The imprisonment of conscientious objectors such as Udi Nir is a violation of international law, of basic human rights and of plain morals.
I therefore call for the immediate and unconditional release from prison of Udi Nir, without threat of further imprisonment in the future, and urge you and the system you are heading to respect the dignity and person of conscientious objectors, indeed of all human beings, in the future.
Sincerely,
3. Letters to media in Israel and in other countries
Writing op-ed pieces and letters to editors of media in Israel and other countries could also be quite useful in indirectly but powerfully pressuring the military authorities to let go of the objectors and in bringing their plight and their cause to public attention.
Here are some contact details for the main media outlets in Israel:
Ma’ariv:
2 Karlibach st.
Tel-Aviv 67132 – Israel
Fax: +972-3-561-06-14
e-mail: editor@maariv.co.il
Yedioth Aharonoth:
2 Moses St.
Tel-Aviv – Israel
Fax: +972-3-608-25-46
Ha’aretz (Hebrew):
21 Schocken St.
Tel-Aviv, 61001- Israel
Fax: +972-3-681-00-12
Ha’aretz (English edition):
21 Schocken St.
Tel-Aviv, 61001 – Israel
Fax: +972-3-512-11-56
e-mail: letters@haaretz.co.il
Israel Hayom:
2 Hashlosha St.
The B1 Building
Tel-Aviv – Israel
e-mail: hayom@israelhayom.co.il
Jerusalem Post:
P.O. Box 81
Jerusalem 91000 -Israel
Fax: +972-2-538-95-27
e-mail: news@jpost.co.il or letters@jpost.co.il
Radio (fax numbers):
Kol-Israel +972-2-531-33-15
and +972-3-694-47-09
Galei Zahal +972-3-512-67-20
Television (fax numbers):
Channel 1 +972-2-530-15-36
Channel 2 +972-2-533-98-09
Channel 10 +972-3-733-16-66
We will continue updating on further developments.
Thank you for your attention and action,
New Profile.
________________________________
UPDATE:
I just finished this post 2 minutes ago when I received another mail with the same content, about a second young man imprisioned – the second of the same group:
CO Avichai Vaknin, 18, a pacifist conscientious objector from the town of Yehud, near Tel-Aviv, has been sentenced on 20 Aug. to 21 days in military prison.
Avichai Vaknin
ID number 030146277
Military Prison No. 6
Military Postal Code 01860, IDF
Israel
Fax: ++972-4-9540580
The same actions as proposed for Udi are recommended here as well !!
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I came to Israel to serve as a volunteer in the IDF this year and will do so again every year. I fully support severe punishment for any able bodied young man or woman who refuses to serve in any capacity in the IDF. Israel needs everyone’s input to aid its security requirements regardless of personal beliefs.
Shame on those selfish young people who ideology undermines Israel’s national security.
Shame on the state of Israel whose ideology forces people to sell their morals and values and to commit crimes against humanity for the sheer sake of cheap politics.
Have you considered the fact that some people are decent enough to consider human rights, equality and ethical behavior to be more powerful than any of your useless weapons?
Thanks for the article Eva, these are the real brave faces of Israel, not those who hide behind their guns and bombs, and who couldn’t care less when they destroy entire nations to serve their own petty interests.
The only crimes against humanity in the region are committed by Israel’s neighbors who through their 60 years of on-going aggression requires the Jewish state to defend itself with all its might.
Israel occupies no land outside its own borders. It tolerates the residency of hundreds of thousands of arabs who have no natural or historical claim to Israeli land.
I’m sure that’s what IDF officials want you to believe, and it’s a nice story, but everyone beyond the IDF knows that the reality is very different:
Land Grab: Israel’s Settlement Policy in the West Bank:
More: 32% of illegal Israeli settlements built on private Palestinian land.
David, you say: “Israel occupies no land outside its own borders.”
I’m not sure where you were during this:
Of course you can close your ears and call this propaganda, but there are many Israelis, including fellow soldiers with experience, who have a different story than what you have been told by your government and IDF friends.
You can see exactly why some decent human beings in Israel refuse to participate in these massive crimes. With their same logical, some people refuse to serve in any militant activities in Lebanon or Palestine (would you call them “selfish” too?)
Again, those who refuse violence are the real brave faces of their countries, people who value each other’s existence regardless of political or religious barriers, not the warrior nationalists who thrive on death and criminal behavior.
I’ll say it again, it is NOT a crime for Israel to defend itself against the enemy from within and the neighboring enemy and any Israeli that refuses to do so is a criminal no matter what their beliefs are.
It IS a crime to imprison someone for valuing human rights and refusing participation in what many Israelis and soldiers are disgusted with and find to be immoral.
Because millions of children and women are “enemies.” Dismantling innocent people’s homes is defense against the “enemy.” Using the homes of innocent Palestinians as an army base is defense against “the enemy.” Yes, you make a compelling argument!
And all that aside, what do all these illegal settlements that I noted above have to do with defending Israel? You don’t mind that your country is illegaly expanding at the expense of Palestinian lives? Israel has more than just war crimes on its neck, tons of illegal settelements is something even the EU has spoken against, but no action has been taken. So please, if you are trying to convince us that Israel is the angelic force for peace, you have many friends and colleages who beg to differ and are being abused and silenced for having this opinion. Hardly an ideal situation now is it? Talk to your friends.
“even the EU”, you must be joking to place any credence on that anti-semitic organization, absolutely laughable.
As for occupying land, occupying whose land ? The arabs, or as you choose to call them Palestinians are occupying Israeli land and should be grateful for that. They neither belong there nor have any valid claim to the land.
“innocent Palestinians” – an oximoron, there ain’t no such creature.
The EU is an anti-Semitic organization? The EU?! I am cackling so hard that my stomach is screaming obscenities at me. If you think the EU is anti-Semitic I look forward to what you have to say about the UN and any other organization in existence who have serious issues with Israel.
With your tedious logic, everyone who is not Israeli and a staunch nationalist is anti-Semitic, roughly 6.2 billion people on Planet Earth, including millions of Israelis and Jews themselves. Brilliant. Now we know what they teach you during IDF’s seminars.
This opinion of yours is particularly brutal and doesn’t dignify an actual response – what scares me is that you claim to be a soldier. An armed person with such an opinion is the most dangerous crime in itself, if soldiers think like this, you can imagine what is happening towards innocent civilians (I mean, “worthless creatures”) by such abusive bigots.
God be with all those innocent people dying and being tortured in your hands.
As Esra’a noted, Israel builds settlements on Palestinian land. The Palestinians are also building on Jewish owned land:
http://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=41035
Since everyone is building on everyone elses land, and no one is going to leave, then they are both going to have to share – a skill that everyone learns in kindergarden but fails to apply in their adult lives. If they do not share, there is going to be war. With weapons becoming more and more dangerous, any future conflict could have a catastrophic affect on the entire world.
People say this about Israel and the Jews as well. When they do, it is entirely incorrect. What makes saying the statement in reverse any more accurate? Such selfish thinking only makes it harder for everyone to coexist.
Precisely, the UN is the epitome of anti-semitism.
“particulary brutal” – no such thing when defending ones own civilians against barabaric agressors.
Once again, this is something that will be said back at you.
Madmax, instead of condemning a situation (which you didn’t) you claim that Palestinians “do the same,” which basically means you are justifying both the abuse and the fact that a soldier regards Palestinians to be violent “creatures.” So who is the one being selfish here? Are you also going to proudly admit that you have no value or consideration for Palestinian human lives?
And thanks for your extremely credible article which notes:
There is no bias here whatsoever, he was only Israel’s housing minister! No bias at all. I believe every word.
Last I checked, Arabs constitute at least 20% of Israel.
Oh, I forgot, Arabs don’t deserve equal treatment there, making it harder for any of this construction to be “legal.”
And those who bought these distortions, they were. But how did the rest of the world react? They didn’t have to, we are aware of the reality of the situation.
Because I am an armed solider who has no shame in justifying war crimes and claimed that Israelis and Jews are violent “creatures” (as in, non-human beings, animals, worthless)? Quote me on that. Look through my posts and comments to support this implication of yours.
Get some common sense, Madmax. Your defense of racism is utterly disappointing.
David, your intelligent and well-sourced refutations are impeccable. Tell me where you were schooled, I wish to enroll immediately.
Way to jump to conclusions. I was merely pointing out that his feelings go both ways. When people see the same shit coming at them, they tend to reevaluate or at least condsider the problems with their way of thinking. Should I start saying every single emotion I feel in every single post I write? Ok: I find generalizations of entire groups of people (David’s comments) to be dangerous, counter-productive worldviews that only lead to more violence. As for sources, everyone has an agenda of some sort. If I dismissed sources solely for political reasons, I’d have to dismiss everything every written. I’ll read that stuff like that along with articles from leftist periodicals like “Z Magazine.”
Once again, trying to illustrate that racism is a two way street. Most people dish it out without vbeing able to take it. Let him taste his own medicine. That comment was not directed at you. I was talking to David…
Sorry, I thought you were talking to me and meant that it’s okay for David to claim Palestinians are “creatures” simply because certain people say the same about Israelis, and that it was okay to build illegal settlements because Arabs were doing it too (which I think is factually incorrect by the way.) I misunderstood and apologize.
Madmax,
I looked at your link claiming that Palestinians are building on Jewish land. I was baffled to read such a statement – something I’ve never heard until this very moment. Yes – maybe you’re right – there might be a few houses built on land that Israel stole from the Palestinians sometime before and therefore “owns” it. But even IF this is the case, there are not many of those houses around – or hold more than a week before the IDF destroys them. From my living room window I witnessed many of such House Demolitions within the boundaries of the municipality of Jerusalem, in an Arab neighborhood where residents just DON’T RECEIVE building permits, where the municipality does NOTHING to create a decent infrastructure of anything, where the residents are reduced to BURN their litter, where closed sewage pipes were only put when the stench seriously bothered US Jewish neighbors in the newly built houses right across that Arab neigborhood of Jerusalem (!).
I truly have never heard of Palestinians building on Jewish land. What Jewish land, anyway??
Hey Eva, you are describing living conditions in which arabs feel most comfortable. Go visit Egypt, Jordan,Syria, Lebanon and you’ll soon realize that they live better in E. Jerusalem than in their homelands next door.
Maybe you should go live in Syria, you could establish a Jewish homeland there, obviously you don’t believe to be living there now.
That’s just the housing minister being delusional.
In reality there have been so many Palestinian houses that were demolished that there’s even an Israeli committee against it now.
No problem, I need to be more clear in what I say. I imply a lot of my feelings and sometimes that can be misread. I reverse peoples statements as a rhetorical device designed to show them how it feels to be on the other end of such comments. In doing so, I often fail to mention exactly how I feel on the subject.
Indeed, Esra’a!
There is, and there are many other human rights groups, movements and institutions in Israel – the ICAHD you quote is only one of them.
To David!
I thank you for your comments here – you actually illustrate very well what I reported in my post “From Jerusalem to Auschwitz”. You show the true face of Israeli main-stream racism and inhumanity. I hope that many will read your testimony of how hateful Israelis and IDF soldiers actually are. Not all of them – Thank God! – but so many of them, and your words illustrate how these horrible abused committed by the Israeli “Defense” Forces are possible. Thank you for being so brave to show how the Israeli street really thinks and speaks, because sometimes people think I exaggerate when I write about this.
Kol Ha-Kavod, David!
Eva,
Thats a loaded statement. It belongs to both and both should build on it. Do you believe that all of the land belongs to the Palestinians? Thats the impression I am getting. If not, enlighten me. People of Jewish and Arab decent have resided in the land for centuries. To claim that it is not Jewish land is bullshit. To claim that it is not Palestian land as David says is also bullshit. To me, the article shows more and more how definitions of ownership are becoming blurry. If everyone is building on everyone elses land, can we still say that separate ownership of the land is a reality? This feeds into the bi-national state solution that I have always advocated. Because people do not budge willingly, it will be vary hard to partition land for two ethnically based states.
David, I am sure most Arabs do not feel comfortable with miserable living conditions.People do not always lead a certain lifestyle because they want to. I am also sure that the countries you name have more to them than slums. We have slums in America too. Lets suppose they do live better in E. Jerusalem. That still does not mean Arabs should face systemic abuse. All that means is that many Arab governments treat their citizens in a disgusting manner. Many governments do that, and its a separate issue. You’ll plenty of people on this site arguing against the way many Arab nations are run. Also, keep in mind that living conditions vary with means. I’m sure rich Eqyptians and Syrians do much better than E. Jerusalem Arabs.
Eva, the position that you represent that apparently corresponds to that of neighboring enemies and those within Israel must ultimately end in the further dilution of the Jewish state and defeat by the enemy. If you want to live under arab rule, go live next door, but if you advocate a one state solution, you will be killed. They preach it daily and they will succeed.
“I thank you for your comments here – you actually illustrate very well what I reported in my post “From Jerusalem to Auschwitz”. You show the true face of Israeli main-stream racism and inhumanity.”
Eva, what if an Israeli Jew took your quote and said to a Muslim adversary,
“You show the true face of Muslim main-stream racism and inhumanity,” (mainstream being the operative word)?
Would you allow it to stand to say that Muslim, or any diverse society of millions of people, is generally inhumane, and that the bad actions of a few are typical of most everyone else? Or would you rightfully declare such a statement to be inappropriate, hateful, and a lie?
Let’s tell the truth. If any non-Arab said that Palestinians are generally inhumane, he/she would be taken to task, called horrible names here, screeched at in order to intimidate them into silence, and would be fodder for those who just love to make themselves feel self righteous here. But let’s not call your behavior for what it is … a despicable double standard rather than adherence to a zero-tolerance policy against perpetuating negative sterotypes regardless of who is doing it, and regardless of who is receiving it. But it looks like since Eva is Jewish, she gets a free pass to discuss Israel’s diverse society in a overwhelmingly negative light, and somehow that’s not called bigotry or bias, that’s called defending human rights. WTF? That’s just corrupt.
Either you are against claiming diverse societies of millions of people are in fact monolithic and robotically racist in order to slap agenda-suiting, “inhumane” labels on them, or you aren’t. You can’t have it both ways.
Eva, you are Israel’s version of Wafa al-Sultan — telling us, “hey, I’m a member of this group so when I say my people suck, are generally racist, violent, inhumane, typified by nasty behavior, and that their negative qualities largely outshine their positive ones, you should believe it.” No thanks.
Vile to the core. You don’t get a free pass to slap derogatory labels upon multifaceted societies en masse as long as it suits your own agenda. You don’t get to decide which diverse groups deserve to be castigated monolithically based upon your own discretion. Treating people equally is not a luxury.
Anybody interested in a new Middle East must say no to the perpetuation of negative stereotypes across the board.
It is one thing to point out problems within one’s society. That is a must. We should all do it. It is a whole different thing to take the negative characteristics of the few individuals you have encountered and perpetuate them to several million people.
EcoGirl, I have never seen someone so incessently defensive without having refuting a single fact. You seem to despise anyone who isn’t a staunch and blind nationalist. You witnessed someone here (a soldier, even) call Palestinian non-human and practically underserving of human rights and dignity and yet you call Eva a “racist.” Why? Because she wrote a post defending Israelis who do not wish to serve in the army for ethical reasons, not for their hatred or “racism”!
You did not condemn what David said, as racist and hateful as it was, not even slightly, and attacked Eva personally (claiming that she’s a self-hating Jew and Israeli, simply for criticizing Israeli policy!) and yet you expect us here to take you seriously. Um, how?
By your oustanding logic, we are all self-hating here, for criticizing corruption within our countries. And a Palestinian activist who condemns Palestinian terrorism is also “self-hating” and must have some tedious agenda in favor of Zionism. This is your simplistic opinion, so don’t tell us next time to condemn terrorism against Israel as Arabs and Muslims, because you think that depending on your NATIONALITY and RELIGION, you should only defend your people and not other human beings, regardless of who and what they represent!
This sentence in particular is hilarious. Wafa is someone who loathes Islam for extremely personal reasons and encourages right-wing Islamophobia, her view of Islam is increasingly politicized. Eva, in not a single instance, encouraged hatred against Jews, in fact she has always condemned such hatred. In not a single instance did she even bring religion up! You are making very dangerous and inaccurate assumptions based on your paranoia; not facts, or your knowledge of what Eva truly represents.
We see many Israelis and Jews defending themselves, and people like David even claiming that Palestinians are “creatures” – in your opinion this doesn’t deserve condemnation which poses some serious questions about your humanity and ethical standards. Eva equally condemns hatred towards Palestinians, which she has exposed here, and which you have yet to refute.
She is simply attacking corruption within her community and she has a right to. I see her as a patriot, not as a hateful person. When we criticize our countries and ourselves it is because we care about our future and wish to correct it. Any person must stand up for their values regardless of limitations of religion, nationality and geography. It is time for others to grow up and respect that, instead of blindly attacking anything in sight simply for their slight criticism of Israeli hatred and terrorism.
I assume you have disrespect and nothing but pity for all those Palestinians who have voiced concerns over attacking Israel, because according to you this would be “propaganda” and “hateful.”
Funny also, that you love to talk about stereotyping so much, but refuse to believe in intellectual diversity within your own community and assume that everyone must think and feel the same way otherwise they have a “self-serving agenda” and are “self-hating.” If this is not stereotypical and daft then I don’t know what is.
I’ll make it simple Esra so that even you with your mumbo jumbo rhetoric, beating around the bush and saying effectively nothing in the end. You would be an excellent servant of the UN and the EU, typically full of hot wasted air but no effective action.
You are obsessed by my description of the arabs being discussed here as “creatures”. Perhaps you have a more accurate description of an unprovoked person that attacks innocent people on a street with a bulldozer. If these people can’t stand the “heat” then they should get out of the kitchen and move to a neighboring country although we all know that they are even less welcome there.
I say 10 eyes for an eye, no less, no more.
David, once again you dazzle us with a comment that doesn’t merit an actual response. Now I only ask that you get out of the way so that the adults can have a real conversation.
No chance bird brain, you are as transparent as you are wrong on every count. Incidentally, you are not welcome in our country, the only democracy in the M.E.
Touché.
David, your behavior and attitude is monstrous. The idea that someone like you serves in the army is petrifying. I can only imagine what you are capable of.
Keep up the good work Eva. Don’t let such people scare you into silence, you are better than them for knowing what’s right. I admire and appreciate your efforts.
EcoGirl,
Have you ever actually spoken with any “real-life” Palestinians? If yes, would you mind to ask your friends about their experiences with Israeli “mainstream” racism? “Mainstream” doesn’t mean that each and every Israeli is racist – or even equally deeply racist. I’ve been living here for 12 years, and after experiencing 36 years of European racism of all kinds and colors, I can tell the difference when I see it.
I’m not condemning Judaism as a religion at all – but like in any normal democracy religion and state should be seperated. This was, by the way, Herzl’s own vision of “The State of the Jews” (and not “The Jewish State”, as it is generally -wrongly- translated). The State of the Jews should have been secular and multicultural – meaning that Jews and Arabs should have lived together in one state.
I can understand your position very much – I guess you were born and raised in Israel, right? If other young people were able to take distance from the mainstream Israeli narrative, you should be able as well. It’s not very difficult to experience what is going on in the WB – it’s only a few miles away from where you live. Go to Hebron and have a look. Speak to the people of Breaking The Silence – they are available, you can meet them if you want. Speak to members of Combatants for Peace and ask them about their experiences and their views. Once you’ve done this, let’s talk again!
Murad, your pathetic few words indicate no appreciation for the good guys providing your with the freedom that you now enjoy instead of sitting in an Iraqi jail or even worse which was your destiny prior to Sadam’s invasion.
David, the amount of ignorance you hold is vomit-inducing. Consider reading a book. My personal freedom has nothing to do with Israel or the IDF, who continue to cause nothing but suffering to thousands of innocent people. Your own freedom is at the expense of the “creatures” that you so openly hate, proving that you are nothing but an insult to humanity. You can claim to be one of the “good guys” all you want, but anyone with an iota of a brain realizes otherwise. You’re not brave, the people who fight against the overall idiocy of the IDF and its crimes are the real brave ones in Israel, seeing what they have to suffer through.
Rarely do I come across people who are this utterly misguided and misinformed. It is almost depressing being exposed to your clueless thoughts.
From the tenor of this conversation it is clear to me, at least, that we are not going to talk our way to peace.
Everyone believes what he wants to believe, and some of us are even willing to kill and die for what we believe. The trouble is that many beliefs contradict one another, and that spells war. And the other problem is that many of us don’t really know what we believe, because we often change our beliefs as circumstances dictate. So belief, in an of itself, is too shaky a ground on which to build our future.
So what’s the answer? The answer is to create realities on the ground that speak louder than words, and that point to the possibility of peace. Don’t worry so much what people believe, and how they feel about you. Help a person out with a good paying job, a job which protects the environment, and you will go a long way to briding the ideological divide, even without having to say too much.
In a way, that’s how God operates. He doesn’t really ask us what we believe. I don’t think He even cares about that. He creates realities on the ground and let’s those realities speak for themselves. When God blesses a young couple with a baby, for example, does He inquire as to their beliefs about that child? Not really. He gives them a child, and let’s that reality speak for itself. You will feed that child, and clothe that child, and struggle to put a roof over that child’s head. And if you don’t, you will lose that child.
We should make peace in the same way. Create jobs which protect the environment, and you’ll get a lot closer to peace than empty words could ever bring you.
Nissim, with all due respect, it gets incredibly tedious when you claim that you are an expert on dialogue and “peace,” and MAKE the discussion about idealism and totally irrelevant theories when we are trying to have an honest conversation here where real opinions are being expressed about an important issue.
Please let us have our conversation in this thread and allow us to express our opinions honestly. We’re not going to disregard reality and hug each other simply because it’s “cute.” I want to know what other people are thinking and feeling, and with the “let’s forget it and maintain peace” rubbish it’s not going to work. There are innocent people out there dying in the hands of racist soldiers like David and chatting about “peace” isn’t going to change that; this is a crucial point that you must understand.
This thread shouldn’t meander in different directions any further. This thread is about youth being imprisoned for refusing to serve in the IDF, which I think is wrong and unethical. Now we want to know what others think, because this is essentially what we are here to talk about, instead of being lectured on peace while ignoring reality.
Dear Esra’a. The reasons why I didn’t say anything about David’s racist and vulgar depiction of Palestinians and Arabs on your website is because he already was taken to task for it. You did a good job, and I didn’t feel the need to jump the bandwagon only to reiterate what you already said. But just to state it for the record … David, you are a racist AH.
However, I have noticed that Eva has a dangerous habit of crossing the line from her defense of Palestinians to generalize that Israeli society is inhumane at large. Do you agree that it is fair to label a multicultural society of millions of people, with numerous political parties and persuasions, as generally inhumane? Yes or no would suffice.
If the answer is yes, please tell me which other country, rich in its diversity, do you think also should be labelled generally inhumane — that its negative characteristics outshine its positive ones? Seems to be you are defending the indefensible here, and justifying a double standard because your buddy is doing it. If anyone else routinely posted here that a Middle Eastern country is mostly inhumane and that it is fucked up with racism to the extent that it should be defined by it, they’d get kicked in the crotch. I know you are a woman too, but grow a pair of balls and tell your friend that same thing you’d tell anyone else who would come to your website to slap oversimplified, ugly labels upon multicultural societies.
You want proof that Eva perpetuates negative stereotypes, but it’s obvious in her responses!! Read them. Eva basically states that the worst of Israel’s society should be held up as the country’s poster child, telling everyone here racists like David are the real face of the Israeli street. But that’s not enouraging people to feel disgust toward Israel, right? Well, okay then what will you say when someone tries to hold bin Laden up as the de facto poster child of Gulf Arab society? Who gets to claim with impunity that a Persian racist is the legitimate face of Iran? How about the Janjaweed, is that what Sudan boils down to? The answer is no.
Confront racism. Don’t generalize it. One standard for all.
Eva, I am not surprised you seek to justify your perpetuation of negative stereotypes. But you are wrong to stipulate that what happens in the territories reflects Israeli mainstream attitudes. Have you ever been to Haifa? Oh yes, the racism there … in the restaurants, cafes, shops, etc., where Arabs and Jews mingle without incident daily … is rife, mainstream, and obviously horrendous, isn’t it? And Kibbutz Metzer, founded by Ashkenazi Jews from Poland, which offered to give up its own land so the Separation Barrier wouldn’t negatively impact Palestinian lives, even after a Palestinian militant broke into the kibbutz and murdered children, truly reflects Israel’s inhumanity, don’t you agree? Shall I go on? There are MANY such incidents of Israel’s goodness and desire for peace. You just have to open your eyes and look all around you. These are not exceptions to the rule, the ARE the rule.
The fact of the matter is that the overwhelming number of incidents that occur between Arab and Jew within Israel are in fact completely peaceful and without incident, whether at the movies, the local park, or standing in line at a retail establishment. People interact just fine all the time without harboring nefarious desires to conquer and expunge the other side. That’s mainstream society for you. Arab restaurants, stores, etc. in Jerusalem thrive with Jewish clients. They don’t boycott, shun, or foster a climate of rejection.
What about the critical mass of Israelis that celebrated in Rabin Square the night he was murdered, singing about peace? Not mainstream enough? What about the overwhelming number of Israelis who voted for Ehud Barak in the Year 2000, utterly trouncing Binyamin Netanyahu, because Barak’s campaign offered peace with the Palestinians, Lebanon, and Syria? Not mainstream enough? Yeah, all those millions of people are really on the margins.
In addition, Israel has created MANY human rights organizations — hundreds if not more — with the single intention of looking out for its rivals. I do not know of any other society that has ever done that, do you??
Tell us, Eva, how could SO MANY organizations get established, flourish, make impacts, and maintain their ongoing vitality with funds and membership, if there weren’t a strong culture of coexistence within Israel? These are grassroots efforts coming from somewhere. And no, they don’t spring from a generally inhumane society.
As I said, it is great to look after Palestinians. In fact, I will even thank you outright for doing so, and acknowlege that there are seriously racist problems that occur in the territories and also against Bedouin communities that must be confronted and eliminated. But it is another thing to insist that negative characteristics and dysfunctional behavior overwhelmingly define a diverse society of millions of people. Most Israelis don’t agree with what is occuring, they just don’t know what to do about it so they wind up allowing the status quo, which needs to change. David is not the common face of the Israeli street.
Israel has many problems that can be worked out, but it is not mainstream inhumane.
I’ve never claimed to be an expert on anything, Esra’a. In fact, I don’t think there are any experts on peace. If there were, where is the peace?
How do you know, Esra’a? It doesn’t seem that all the talk works either. So why not try something new? I’m talking about creating realities that speak louder than words. Not talking for the sake of talking. A lot of people like to hear themselves talk. But that’s not going to get us where we need to be. At least in my opinion.
If you say that I’m meandering away from the thread, you probably have a point. But that’s my point as well. We may well have to meander a bit from one point, to get to an even more important point. We can lose ourselves in endless verbal attacks, or we can create realities on the ground which make the point more clearly, and without BS. I don’t think it’s an empty gesture to point that out.
These organizations were created because it is obviously needed. However, I have a very hard time believing that the overwhelming majority in Israel are in favor of these groups, or that such groups are generally looked highly upon. Take a look at the Israeli blogosphere alone and see how people react to anyone remotely sympathetic to the Palestinian cause, it is horrific. Then take a look at the mainstream media in Israel, with the exception of Haaretz, and tell me that these ideas are “common” there.
Pro-Palestinian activism in Israel is not mainstream. It’s not uncommon, but it’s certainly not mainstream either. The Israeli government invests millions in PR campaigns to make sure that such thinking doesn’t dominate.
You really don’t? Many organizations in the Arab world and in Iran exist on the exact same premises, fighting for the human rights of people or minorities who are considered “infidels,” or “traiters”, etc, but there are hardly any groups openly fighting for Israeli human rights because you have the money, knowledge, and connections to do that yourself. You also have powerful media outlets in the USA doing that for you. You have the security and funding that Arab states could only dream of. We Arabs can barely take care of oursleves before we start “fixing” another nation that doesn’t even need fixing as it is by far much more powerful than the entire Arab League combined. But that doesn’t mean that your government is better or less corrupt, it simply means that it got luckier in terms of support and leadership.
When we have abuses against Baha’is, Kurds, Yezidis, et al, why would we need to set up an organization to support Israeli human rights when your nation has the capacity to take care of itself? Just to prove that we aren’t the monsters that some people claim we are? A lot of us do condemn crimes against innocent Israelis, some people even condemn them openly on TV and in papers (contrary to what MEMRI TV wants you to believe,) and they risk their lives doing that, but somehow that’s never enough. To me, as an Arab, Eva is not proof that Israel is bad simply because she chooses to criticize it, she proves to me every day that there are Israelis who care and value the lives of other human beings which the Israeli media obssessively refers to as “enemies,” and this makes me appreciate and respect Israelis a lot more.
Eva is not the problem with Israel, and she is far from a propagandist, like other ardent Israelis claim. The problem with Israel is people like David, especially when they are put in the position of being soldiers. It’s people like him who ruin the image of Israel around the world, and until such people are put in their place it is going to be very hard for us to assume that the majority of Israelis are a peaceful force. It is unfortunate but I have actually come across most people like him and not like Eva.
I think that EcoGirl makes a good point here. It is not fair to define a society by its aberrations, whether we’re talking about Israel, or any other country for that matter.
Israel has many good things going for it, and if you ask me, Israel is best positioned to bring true justice to the Middle East. She is one of the few countries that has the technological and economic ability to do that, and if you get down to it, she is more motivated to help than anyone else.
As for the aberrations, and the injutices, yes, they exist. The best way to understand this, which I know not everyone agrees with, is to say that when you believe that you are being threatened, then you will defend yourself, and when you do, you will inevitably become involved in injustice, because when you’re in doubt, you will choose your security over anything else. And this is not just true of Israel, but of almost any other nation on earth. 9/11 happened, and the U.S. invaded two countries. Nations will protect themselves as they see fit, even when that takes them a bit over the top.
On the other hand, as EcoGirl points out, there is plenty of evidence that most Israelis are inclined toward peace, including the fact that Israeli Arabs enjoy full citizenship and a high standard of living. Granted, there is some discrimination against them, but even that is being vigorously challenged by both Israeli Jews and Israeli Arabs.
The point is that it is not fair to generalize the nature of a society based on the evils perpetrated at the hands of a few. Such generalizations can be as distored as the evils themselves.
I disagree. A previous comment of mine already refutes this, with specific examples. But here is more:
“Racism in Israel 2004: Thousands of Arab Citizens Suffer from Racism, Xenophobia, Incitement and Violence” – Evidenced by Arab Israelis themselves.
EcoGirl,
You obviously didn’t read what I wrote about “mainstream”. Concerning the numerous peace and human rights organizations active and alive in Israel and Palestine – there are about 120 in Israel and another 80 in Palestine. But can you find anything about them on TV or even in the newspapers? Where, when and how often? I recently spoke about this with Jessica Montell, the director of B’tselem and she agreed with me that while a lot is going on, in the media there is SILENCE about it. Mr. and Ms. “average Israeli” may have heard about B’tselem, maybe about Breaking the Silence, but the surely don’t know what Gisha is or ICAHD or Yes Din, and even less what what the AlQuds Center for Democracy does (just to quote a few examples..).
Concerning Jerusalem, I live here and I don’t know when you’ve been here last time. Almost no West Jerusalmite dares to adventure himself into East Jerusalem. Haifa is different, I agree. If you try to read again what I wrote, I clearly say that I’m not speaking about EVERYONE AND EVERYWHERE in Israel. But have you ever tried to find a hostel room in Tel Aviv for your Palestinian friend? I did.. Did you know that someone with a Palestinian ID card, no matter what kind of permit he has, isn’t allowed to take a hotel or hostel room in Israel by police order? He was thrown out like a dirty dog (”You have no room here, go where you belong…”) in my presence of Momo Hostel on Ben Yehuda Str. – As a student of Hebrew at Tel Aviv University I once helped him do some research in a public archive in Jerusalem where I was working.. No secret documents, believe me – newspaper articles of Ma’ariv from 1977. This archive is visited and used by people from all over the world. I almost lost my work for bringing there a person, student at TA University, with a valid visa (=permit)… I almost lost my job because this person wasn’t French or German or American – but Palestinian.
I tell you here single incidents. This friend has been studying Hebrew and English for 3 years in Tel Aviv – he now has obtained his MA in Hebrew. For the whole first year of his studies his fellow students didn’t even speak to him.
EcoGirl – how would you call this?
Believe me, I know the difference between someone open minded and someone racist. Israeli society is VERY racist (and again: this doesn’t mean that each Israeli is racist!!) if you want to acknoledge it or not.
You try to twist my words into generalizations that I do not make. I’m the only one here saying what I say, but I’m by far not the only Israeli peace activist to see that very common racism in Israel – upon which, by the way, Israel’s identity as a “Jewish State” is built..
And what do you say about all the discriminatory laws concerning Arabs and Palestinians? Have you heard of ADALAH? If not – have a look at this article by Haneen Naamnih “New Anti-Arab Legislation“
Nissim,
I value your optimism and I wish it was true what you say: “only a few”… In a recent poll published in the newspapers over 50% of all Israelis say that they wouldn’t want to have an Arab as a neighbor. If that isn’t racism, how do you call it?
Israel is an ethnocracy, established by Jews for Jews, and it is a basic fact which created a fondamental discrimination against non-Jews in Palestine, i.e. the Palestinian Arabs, which became second-class citizen, if citizens at all… The fact that many Jewish Israelis like to eat hummus in Arab restaurants is maybe good for the restaurant owners but doesn’t change much to that fondamental discrimination…
Esra’a, I looked at the report you referenced, which looks at violence perpetrated against Arabs by Jews, in Israel, from the year 2000 to the year 2004, with particular emphasis on violence that occured in the wake of the Intifada of the year 2000, as follows: 29 incidents of loss of life, 17 acts of violence, 15 acts of verbal incitement, 9 cases of discrimination in public places, etc.
I don’t really know the facts behind these incidents, but I think it’s important to remember that most of these occured in the wake of the Intifada, which probably created conditions which could easily lead to violence and discrimination. Also, and again, I’m no expert, the numbers seem small as compared to a population of 6.5 million, of whom 20% are Israeli Arabs.
Having said that, I fully agree that any act of discrimination, especially discrmination which results in violence, is morally wrong, and undermines the moral fabric of a society which prides itself on good values and ethical conduct.
Now Eva attributes the discrmination to “racism,” stating that over 50% of Isralis say that they wouldn’t want to have an Arab as a neighbor. I’m not sure that “racism” is the right word here.
Racism is a hatred or intolerance of another race, based on a belief that one’s own race is superior. Well, maybe some Israelis feel this way, but to tell you the truth, from my experience having been born in Israel, and living 7 years there, and having hundreds of family members there, and following Israel’s history for the last 50 years, I don’t believe that racism is the driving force in Israel.
Jews have suffered from racism for some 2000 years, culminating in the Holocaust, which still stands as one of the most evil deeds perpetrated by the hand of man. In light of that history, it does not make sense that Jews would assume the values of their oppressors.
The more likely explanation is that since its founding, Israel has existed and continues to exist under threat of mass annihilation, and as such, it becomes difficult to trust others. Under these circumstances, it is more likely that discrmination would occur, but that reaction is not necessarily racism.
Jews were one of the first to enunciate the Golden Rule, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” I am not saying that they always live up to that noble standard, but it is ingrained in their psyche. If you tell me that some Jews are prejudiced toward certain groups, I couldn’t honestly disagree. But hatred of Arabs because of their race? No. I can’t buy that. It may be fear, or distrust because of a history of violence. But it is not racism.
I would also point out that there have been surveys made in which the vast majority of Israeli Arabs wish to remain in Israel, under Israeli rule. And I would also point out, Esra’a, that the report you mentioned was prepared by a group located in Haifa. That in itself speaks volumes about tolerance in Israeli society.
Let me ask you this: If an objective study were made of the status of human rights in all Middle Eastern countries, which country would score the highest? I may be wrong here, but my guess would be that Israel would score pretty high.
Nissim,
In his year’s “Failed States Index“, Israel was the 58th on the list, receiving worst scores when it comes to human rights than Jordan, Morocco, Oman, the UAE
..go figure.
And who voted, all the anti-semitic, M.E. , African and Asian countries, almost of which do not enjoy democratically elected governments, is it any wonder ?
There wasn’t any “vote” involved. I suggest you acquaint yourself with the methodology involved.
I suppose you’d fire back with “the people behind it are anti-semites and conspiring against Israel.”
That’s the very same rhetoric we hear from extremists in our midst. It just goes to show that they’re all the same, whether they don a kufi, a yarmulke or a clerical collar.
“continues to exist under threat of mass annihilation”… Come on! Israel hasn’t yet accepted the Arab League Initiative, which offers to recognize it and establish full and normal relations with it, by 22 Arab states, if it withdraws to the pre-June 1967 borders!!…
Jews in general and Israelis in particular need that kind of paranoia, they need to feel hated and threatened. It belongs to their indentity, their collective ADN, it brings them a sense of existence and cohesion. Without that they would feel a big void and a total lack of purpose and common belonging. Once you cease to observe the 613 mitzvoth (divine commandments), what is left of Judaism? Nothing, except a vague sense of exclusiveness, confirmed, paradoxally enough, by the hostility of the anti-Semites. If you really want the Jews to disappear almost completely in a few generations, just let them in peace and forget about them. They will gently and smoothly melt in their environment, like it was the case in China…
“You shall love your neighbor as yourself”, yes, but your fellow Jew, not the “goy”, who can’t be your neighbor… The interpretation that it includes the non-Jews too is a late Christian or modern liberal Jewish one. The Jews in the diaspora, for obvious reasons (they badly need to be loved by their non-Jewish neighbors!…) like to present Judaism as an very universalistic religion, albeit the fact that it is a very tribalistic one, but in Israel they don’t have anymore that kind of inhibition and you can see the result every day here…
Nissim,
You are wrong, on pretty much all the accounts you mentioned. Your inaccurate interpretation is not going to dismiss any of these human rights crimes.
Read up on the examples of racism faced by Israeli Arabs, I may have quoted an article from 2004, but in some of my comments above, there were recent and abusive examples from 2007. Be further aware by reading this article. Arab Israelis feel at risk every day in Israel. Apparently that doesn’t bother you.
You may try to close your eyes and ears and claim that Israel is the land of honey and candy, but we all know the truth here. As Kawthar noted in terms of human rights, Israel is doing way worse than many Middle Eastern countries. So who is kidding who here?
I’m sorry, but you are churning up false justifications, and you seem to be extremely unaware of what Israel is capable of. Suffering for 2000 years doesn’t mean you get to make other people suffer for as many years, why do certain Israelis and Jews consider that to be a prominent justification of any crimes Israel commits? Suddenly history is there for us to insist on repeating by making others equally suffer? Stop justifying crimes against humanity, crimes against innocent human beings, to avenge what you have gone through by people who weren’t even responsible.
It’s funny that at the end of the day you would come to ask us about peace, when you apparently think these things are fine, and that Israel is innocent and is an agent of peace and justice. With the way you think right now, peace is not possible. You are in utter denial of what Israel is doing to innocent civilians everywhere and I find that extremely dangerous. You also fail to condemn any of these crimes, instead you note that “Arab countries are worse,” which again, has already been refuted quite soundly by various commenters throughout the thread.
If peace is possible then it would be achieved by people like Eva who have the guts to stand up to ardent Israelis everywhere and attempt to correct some of the century’s worst crimes in terms of human rights.
Again you can deny it, but several Israelis like Eva have gone past through that stage and onwards towards real, effective change, which begins by understanding and correcting the real faults of your society, not denying it for the sake of PR and ego.
I couldn’t help but chip in yet again and note that the Israelis here tend to praise any articles by any Arab or Iranian who dare to speak about their country’s corruption, but when an Israeli does it then it’s unpeaceful and a result of propaganda. Every single time, this is the case, and I have been an avid reader of this blog for a little over a year now. It’s like they are telling us, “you are more than free and in fact encouraged to criticize your own policies or human rights crimes but don’t lay a finger on our own problems because it’s against the mission of peace and dialogue.” This is why when we criticize our countries Israeli readers support us, but when Eva does exactly the same thing as an Israeli, she gets attacked! I smell hypocracy.
It gets worse. Some use our opinions and reporting against us in their own sources (and in staunchly pro-Israel, anti-Arab/Muslim trash sites like JihadWatch) to empower their corrupt and racist political ideologies.
And you wonder why we get annoyed and incredibly frustrated?
The next time someone claims that we are far from “peaceful” because we support people who do criticize their own policies instead of being blind nationalists, I might have to throttle myself.
No matter who you are, justification of any crime is ruthless and would never lead to some sort of mutual understanding. There is also no difference between an Arab or an Iranian condemning their government’s crime or an Israeli condemning their government and military’s vast human rights crimes as well. Before attacking other people’s human rights violations learn how to clean up your own mess first, instead of saying “oh, but you guys are worse.” Do you see me writing often about Israel? No. I write often about Arabs and Iranians and persecution of minorities here because that is my responsibility. These crimes are happening in my name. Eva is doing the same. Crimes are being committed in her name as a Jew and an Israeli and it’s her responsibility to make others aware of them while visibly condemning them all.
I understand and promote the process that Eva herself is engaged in, in my opinion this is what’s really going to lead to peace and mutual understanding, instead of attacking her like some of you guys and defending Israel by denying and justifying its crimes simply to feel good about yourself, but in reality you have just as much responsibility as the rest of us to condemn these human rights crimes occuring every single day in your name, instead of wasting your time and ours by consistently denying reality and claiming that Israelis are superior.
Ecogirl et al,
I am the common face and carry the same opinion as the majority of Israelis whether you want to believe it or not. You are wasting your time and your breathe discussing semantics by accusing each other of taking a position contrary to your own. Like politicians without gumption you swing your tongue around filling the day with hot air while the enemy plots to kill you.
We have hoped that the neighbours will accept our existence, they refuse, we have hoped that the world will assist, it has refused, on the contrary, the situation is more dire now for the Jews in Israel than 60 years ago. If you continue this pointless attempt to integrate the enemy into our society, there will be no Jews left. Racism you say, NO, this is tomorrow’s reality, watch your back.
Your latest comment is more disrespectful than misinformed.
Perhaps if you respect them instead of dismantling their lives and homes (as heavily discussed above) you might have a point, clean up your crimes before you expect people to respect and accept you.
You have the best amount of assistance that you can ask for, other states worldwide have been tolerating your crimes for more than you can imagine. Every time someone cricitizes you if even slightly you claim that they are anti-Semites and launch an ideological and PR war against them, while denying and justifying some of the worst abuses. You also have huge financial assistance from the world’s most powerful government, that of the USA. What more do you want? Money? You have it. Security? You have the best in the region. Acceptance? You have it from the world’s most influential states. Until you clean up your crimes, correct your illegal expansions at the expense of innocent Palestinian civilians, show some progress towards Arab Israelis, you won’t be accepted from most Arabs, because frankly, we still have our self-respect and dignity.
Furthermore, while people here have been supporting their opinions with facts, not once did you support your argument with factual information here, not once. This is because you most likely know you’re wrong but are in denial.
Your ideas are racist in every sense of the word. Killing others because you feel that your race is superior and thus more deserving to live while referring to them as “violent creatures” is by definition “racist.” You even refuse to acknowledge that they are human beings. Is that just you or is this a prerequisite for joining the IDF?
I refuse to believe that your hateful beliefs are representative of the majority of Israelis. We grow up hearing the same claptrap from our leaders (religious and otherwise) and our media simply reinforces that belief.
I joined this forum because I refused to swallow the indoctrination, and if I were an Israeli, I would be extremely enraged and offended at your attempt of speaking on my behalf, just as I am offended when a radical, hateful Muslim claims to speak on my behalf.
I cannot help but smirk at how – with the proper substitutions – your comments here could easily pass off as ones made by a frustrated one of our own mad mullahs.
You represent the ills that we face in our societies, and I hope you realize that no one here takes your claims seriously.
The purpose of this website is to promote dialogue, to build bridges yet all you’re doing is watering the seeds of hate. If you have no intention of engaging us all, Jews, gentiles, Muslims, Christians et al in a respectful dialogue, what are you doing here?
Kawthar, I looked at the “Failed States Index” which you referenced. I would like to make several points. The index ranked 177 states “…in order of their vulnerability to violent internal conflict and societal deterioration.” Israel, which is certainly “vulnerable,” ranked 58, meaning that 57 countries are more unstable. It is important to note, that when they talk about Israel, they’re including the West Bank as part of Israel, since Israel is occupying at least part of that territory.
The study included all sorts of criteria, including: demographic pressures, refugees, group grievance, human flight, uneven development, economy, delegitimization of state, public services, human rights, security apparatus, factionalized elites, and external intervention.
Now with respect to human rights, in particular, and even including all the incidents in the West Bank, Israel scored 5.5 which is a relatively good score. For exmpale, it compares well with Spain and Oman which where ranked at 150 and 146 respectively, in terms of most stable. I would also note that Israel did very well in the economic category scoring 3.9
So in fact, despite all her troubles, and all the injustice of which she is accused, Israel did quite well in terms of human rights, even including the West Bank, matching the scores of countries with much higher levels of stability.
I would also venture to say that if the same analysis were conducted within Israel proper, and not including the West Bank, that Israel’s rank would have shot way up in terms of human rights and all the other categories. Just visit Israel and see for yourselves. I would be happy to accompany Esra’a.
So what does this tell us? The West Bank is like an albatross around Israel’s neck. The West Bank prevents Israel from living up to her potential as a “light unto the nations,” which was supposed to be her destiny.
So what is the solution? Does Israel unilaterally abandon the West Bank? Will that bring justice to the Palestinians?
Israel left Lebanon, and Lenanon is a mess. Israel left Gaza, and Gaza is a mess. If Israel unilaterally leaves the West Bank, will the West Bank not also become a mess. Will Fatah and Hamas all of a sudden get along like old buddies? Or will the region futher deteriorate with extremism. And with a hostile failed state on its border, will Israel not be forced into war, which will cause the deaths of many more innocent civilians? And is that the justice you would mete out to Palestinians? So can’t it be argued that a negotiated settlement is really in the best interests of all concerned even if it takes longer to accomplish?
We can usher in an age of peace, or we can play the blame game. Which do you prefer? The blame game is kind of fun. Each side blames the other, and we all feel good about being right. Wonderful. But time is running out, my friends.
Or we can choose peace. But peace is hard work, and not always as fun: Speak to one another with common sense and with a sense of personal dignity. Invest in one another to create jobs which protect the environment. Inspire one another with a sense of hope. Sustain the hope with some serious public diplomacy. And when necessary, and it will be necessary, fight against the forces of extremism, but position the fight within a Vision of Hope. Raise the fight on the ground to a higher moral plain by giving the fight a moral clarity of purpose.
I know. It’s a little boring. And I keep on saying the same thing. I wish I had more imagination.
Let me put it straight. Israel is not the bad guy. Israel does some bad things, it’s true. But under her circumstances, it’s almost impossible to be completely good.
If you could push the button to destroy Israel, you would probably be destroying the hope for the Middle East. Israel can become the linchpin of the effort to revitalize the stagnant economies of the Middle East. Israel can help transorm the Middle East into a Mecca of Green. Israel can live up to the aspirations of her founders, and become a “light unto the nations” in terms of human rights, and all the noble ideals we all cherish.
No one is in a better position to help the Middle East. No one has more ability to do so. And no one cares more.
What will it take? We are all going to have to step back from some of what we believe, in favor of something we can believe in even more. We will have to get over ourselves and beyond our differnces. We will lose a part of ourselves, only to find something even greater than who we were. I know it is possible, but the tenor of the conversation will have to change.
I prefer that you stop denying crimes taking place by your government and start taking responsibility for cleaning up the mess it has caused. That way, we can at least take you seriously.
It is easy for you to comfortably demand peace, in the most stable country in the region, while tediously claiming that your country is superior (both in terms of stability and seemingly, morals.) Think of those who grew up amongst their family’s corpses and broken glass. They don’t care about what you have to say, you’re not making a difference in their lives, you fail to even acknowledge their situation. How can we ignore that, and respect your utter denial, which is nothing but disrespectful?
Talking about “peace” contributes absolutely nothing to the actual situation at hand. I respect and admire the Israeli organizations who actually work hard (physically) and care about human lives other than their own, these are the real people making a difference, not those in denial and are part of the pro-Israel PR campaign (you care more about Israel’s worldwide image than taking responsibility for what your government is guilty of and trying to correct some of their grave misakes, which you won’t even admit!) – I find this attitude to be incredibly dangerous, and it makes it harder for me and many others to respect Israel as a whole. The more you and your ilk refuse to admit and apologize for these mistakes instead of shamelessly claiming that Arab countries are rubbish, the more you make it harder for me to respect what your country represents.
Actually, it scored 7.9
Which I must say, is pretty BAD! Worse than Algeria, Oman, Morrocco, Bahrain, Libya, Kuwait, Tunisia, Qatar, I can go on and on! So then Nissim it counts up to a lot of false claims that you made within this thread, from Arabs being “respected” in Israel (refuted) to Israel scoring well in terms of human rights. Being informed is important.
Interesting discussion.
This site means well, and purports a ‘different approach’ to ME issues but is simply a mirror of the past.
Everyone, participating in this specific thread, sounds like their parents/elders.
The ideologies and perspectives enumerated could have come from participants 40 years ago.
Peace arrives in two manners. One side prevails (militarilly), or unemotional compromise takes place.
Unemotional compromise entails both sides making sacrfices with an opponent they dislike and distrust and usually involves a third party as a fair observer.
The emotional “Oh yea, but ….” can go on forever and there is wrongdoing enough on both sides of the issue to debate ad infinitum.
Actually, technology changed a lot in this reason, contrary to what you’re telling yourself. Minorities who have never been able to express their thoughts without being killed are finally allowed to express their stories, expose a history that no one even knew about, which is what we are trying to emphasize here. But why would that matter to you, do you notice this difference, that our families have been suffocating for years to practice their right to free speech which has only been slightly granted to us thanks to sites like these? This place alone has a record of firsts in terms of its approach to several ME issues, this is not counting all the other similar initiatives that have literally changed people’s lives. What mirror of the past? Because of one thread you make such an insipid assumption?
In summary, undermining people’s efforts isn’t exactly the best way to contribute to a discussion. What you say just makes me realize that you don’t know what you’re talking about, you’re just being insulting.
“participating in this specific thread” does not infer a generality based upon total content.
You have had some ‘firsts’.
However, in the Palestinian/Israel domain you all sound like your elders and offer the same arguments over and over and ……
What I’m saying is you’ll commit the same acts as your elders, with maturity and power, unless you decide otherwise.
Apparently correcting a bunch of nationalists is making us sound like our elders, well guys then we better stop correcting people’s false claims, and allow them to spam this site with total BS! If this is how our elders sounded like then I must tell them, kudos for putting the racists back in their place, and informing them of what they are generally clueless about.
Denying and justifying human rights abuses is always worthy of refutation and condemnation, regardless of what idealists like you and Nissim may think, so you can preach to us all you want, but you’re not going to sell your ideas to anyone directly involved in this conflict, especially since you’re preaching comfortably from afar while innocent people have to pay with their blood for your denials.
And for your info, being against all forms of extremism is not the “same argument over and over again,” it’s called having some standards. Maybe you should spend more time reading into Eva’s post and what she’s actually trying to say.
This conflict is not a round of catch between two opponents equally strong, but a very asymmetrical one, with an oppressor and an oppressed, and as long as there isn’t some justice for the oppressed there will be no end to the conflict…
I did get the number wrong, 7.9, not 5.5. Those charts aren’t easy to read, that’s for sure, not with my eyes anyway. But I’m sticking with everything else I said.
I think that patb is right on point. You want to be emotional, go ahead. But you’ll get nowhere fast. There are strong emotions on both sides. There are stong equities on both sides. Israel is not perfect. Palestinians are not perfect. Israel uses violence, and so do Palestinians. There is discrimination in Israel, and there is discrimination in vast areas of the Arab world. There are no saints among us, and we are all to blame.
Shaul says that
OK, so bring justice. Now the question becomes; how do you bring justice? Do you think that justice will come from beating one side down, and glossing over the sins of the other? Do you think that justice will come by forcing Israel to confess its sins for the whole world to hear? If that were the standard, then many nations around the world, and in the Middle East as well, would have much more to confess. And where does confession take us anyway?
You want justice, create justice. Blaming one side will not bring justice. It may give you some satisfaction, but at the expense of justice itself.
Forget, for a minute, who you think is right or wrong. Your judgment may not be as just as the justice you seek. Stop the blame game, and start doing something conrete to improve people’s lives. Wouldn’t that be more likely to bring justice? Or is justice not really what we’re after?
This is what totally pisses me off about you, Nissim!
Don’t you understand what you are saying and the fact that you are totally contradicting yourself? You can’t improve anyone’s life if you don’t acknowledge the fact that the government you love to brag about so much has messed these lives up BIG TIME in the first place!
You, with these words, justification of abuse, and utter denial, are not improving anyone’s life – in fact you are only WORSENING this situation. The Israeli organizations that Eva often talks about are the ones making a real difference. These are the true heroic Jews and Israelis. The organizations who admit and act upon the things you are SO OPENLY denying in this very thread!
Try to get it!
By the way:
We may be getting emotional (due to us actually caring) but unlike you, at least we know our facts.
You can’t stick to everything else you said because it was derived from your inaccurate assumption in the first place! It cancels out everything else you said by default because it wasn’t true to begin with!
You’re driving me nuts here.
I think you’re wrong about this, Esra’a. You can improve people’s lives, even if you don’t acknowledge wrongdoing.
The U.S. destroyed Germany in World War II, and then invested in The Marshall Plan, which improved the lives of millions of Germans. Did the U.S. acknowledge any wrongdoing? No. The U.S. just took it upon itself to invest as she saw fit. Confession of wrongdoing was not part of the plan, and would have made no sense.
I said many times, but you refuse to listen, that both sides have done wrong. Why should we insist that Israel do all the confessing? What about terror? That doesn’t count? What about all the wars of aggression against Israel? That doesn’t count?
I think it’s a waste of time to wait for Israel to apologize, because she will not do that if it’s a one-sided deal. But it’s certainly not a waste of time to do what the U.S. did, and to invest in Palestine, to create jobs, to give people hope, to neutralize the hold of extremists thinking. You could do all of that without waiting for empty gestures, like apologies, which do nothing to improve the lot of people.
In terms of the facts, I don’t think you have a monopoly on the facts. I got the number wrong and I admitted it. But I believe in what I said, and what I said does not fall or stand based on the number. Within Israel proper, human rights are respected to a much greater extent than many other countries, and that includes Israeli Arabs. The West Bank is a problem, but I believe in solving that problem, in ways that are realistic, and not dependent on empty gestures like confessions or apologies.
I’m sorry, but I don’t believe this is at all possible. I will give you a more realistic and relevant example than yours:
If I, as a Muslim, do not acknowledge the fact that fellow Muslims are abusing and persecuting the innocent Baha’i minority, how can I improve the lives of my Baha’i brethren? By denying any wrongdoing on my part?
For the sake of my religion and its overall reputation, you suggest that I sit silently by, justifying what is happening in front of my eyes and in my name?
No. Many of us are choosing to fight back, as Muslims, because it’s our responsibility. We are committing these crimes. We owe Baha’is an apology. We apologized; then we started working on improving their human rights. This is what the decent Israelis are doing today as well towards their Palestinian brethren, because it’s their responsibility, no one else’s. It’s yours. You are expected to do it. No one else can.
You are wrong. She has a lot to apologize for, and we are all waiting for these apologies. Another example being that we Muslims continue to apologize publicly on behalf of all those who commit terrorism in our name. I don’t see you doing that, you must not care enough about the innocent victims dying due to the stubbornness of people like you.
You have not once condemned a specific attack by Israel, expressed the brutality of it, and apologize for it. You simply say, “both sides are wrong, but Arab states are significantly worse than Israel, and you all suck at peace, while we are running the world’s most awesome democracy where even minorities are protected.”
This holier-than-thou attitude gets under my skin. These ideas come from the same roots that inspire racism, the idea that your race is morally and intellectually superior. At this site, we have always apologized for all the terrorism and crimes taking place against Jews and Israelis, and if you read it often you should be the first to know that. Where are you to condemn your own crimes though? You are too busy defending Israel in one of the most retarded PR wars in history.
You couldn’t be more wrong! There are Israelis out there risking serious abuse by building homes from scratch for the Palestinians whose horrific suffering you deny! These human rights organizations, if you even bother to ever research them, start with apologies. Apologies by Jews and Israelis who had no hand in these crimes but wish to see them stop, because unlike you they acknowledge these wrongdoing from their abusive government and unlike you they actually care enough to correct it instead of lying about it with completely false information and denying reality.
Every single example of yours was inaccurate and thus refuted accordingly.
Come on! It’s more than the wrong number. What about the Arab Israelis whom you claimed live happily when in fact they are being denied some of their basic rights simply because of their race? What about the fact that you claimed that Israel is way better in terms of human rights than most Arab countries (also refuted)?
Speaking of Arab Israelis, they too have organizations set up to protect their human rights, have you considered giving them a hand, or lending an ear to hear their demands for support? You weren’t aware of their situation before you made these false claims, but you are now, why don’t you help them? It’s your responsibility as a citizen to protect all minorities in your country. Just like it is our responsibility to protect the rights of remaining Jews here, which a lot of us are doing visibly, including our governments which does as much as appoint them to office.
So basically, you’re suggesting “sure let’s whipe them off, we’ll make it up later with a sizeable investment.” Seems to me that you have no consideration towards Palestinian human rights and like David, don’t even consider them to be human, since you are perfectly fine with crimes taking place against their very existence. Palestine is more than just a blurry spot on a map. There are people there. Seriously. Some of them are even children, and they deserve to live, too, with dignity!
Stop treating them like worthless animals. The more I read your comments the more I witness you dehumanize them while making them seem like directionless numb-skulls, all the while patting Israel in the back for being the best, the peaceful, the “just,” or whatever you’re trying to convince us here.
It seems to me, Esra’a, that you enjoy arguing with yourself. You put words in my mouth, words I never said, and inflame yourself with those same words.
You say that I want you to be silent about the Baha’i. I never said that.
You say that I don’t care about innocent victims. I never said that.
You say that I say that you “all suck at peace” and that Israel is the world’s most awesome democracy. I never said that.
You say that I said “sure let’s wipe them off, we’ll make it up later with a sizeable investment.” I never said that.
You say that I think that Palestinians are not human. I never said that.
You say that I am perfectly fine with crimes taking place against them. I never said that.
You say I’m treating Palestinians like worthless animals. Nonsense.
The more I read your comments the more I see a person who fuels her own rage not from my words but from her own imagination.
You attribute the worse to me, words which I never uttered, words which are not consistent with my posts, nor with my intentions, and you use these words, which you made up, to inflame yourself.
What am I trying to convince you here? It’s simple. I’m trying to suggest a pathway to peace, and to justice. It may work, or it may not. But it’s at least worth a voice.
You seem to admire all sorts of wonderful organizations. Wonderful. Where is the peace? Where is the justice? Are we any closer to peace? Are Palestinians any closer to justice. Or does that even matter?
My approach takes things as they are, with a minimum of emotion, because emotions run high on both sides, and I shy away from placing blame, or demanding apologies. I would take some good paying jobs over apologies any day. Inflaming passions is easy. Creating facts on the ground that bring justice and that point to the possibility of peace is not. Our emotions are what got us to this place. Isn’t it time to try something else?
If I don’t end up getting kicked off this site, I will make my next post about emotions in the Middle East. It is at the core of what is wrong in that precarious place, and I’m including Israel on that score…just to make things fair.
Nissim,
I find your idea totally out of reality. Have you ever checked with the Israeli government if they would actually let you do what you suggest? I am not so sure about it.
My main question to you is why you think that one needs to suggest any new pathway to peace? What’s wrong with what has been elaborated, agreed upon several times, signed and signed again, declared and re-declared: that the Israelis must remove the settlements from the WB. That the Israel army must get out of the WB. That Palestinians need their independence to be able to create a state.
You can’t create a state when a foreign army is in power in your country. How would you do that?
And what’s the problem with justice? Palestinians in the WB have no rights whatsoever. When the settlers aggress them, the victims are arrested. So what’s to be done to get that picture right again? Isn’t that obvious? The army must stop it’s abuses. Stop them – that’s all it takes. Treat a human as a human. Give everyone a fair trial. Punish everyone according to the same law. Right now in the WB human beings identified as Jews punished following Israeli law – if they are punished at all. In the very same place, human beings called Palestinians are punished according to Military Law. Which means in day to day reality that if a boy of 13 throws stones at the Seperation fence, he is sent to a military prison for 3 month! If a young man of 18 throws stones at PEOPLE in the presence of police and army, in front of 70 eye-witnesses, he isn’t arrested at all. I just let you guess: do you think that the 13-year old boy is Israeli? And that the 18 year old youngster is Palestinian? What do you say, Nissim. – If I speak about these particular 2 incident, it’s because I was an eyewitness to the second incident and a person I know very well was an eyewitness to the first incident. To set things straight: the 13 year old boy sent to prison for 3 month for throwing stones at the fence is Palestinian and the 18 year old is an Israeli settler. What is so unclear, so difficult here? Don’t you see what is wrong in this picture and how to set it right?
There is no need for a new path to peace. Just apply what is already decided. Just make the army act according to what it claims to be: “the most humane army in the world”.
How can it be that a person – someone VERY known in the meantime, a very serious peace activist – was sent to prison for 7 YEARS at the time when he was 17 for throwing stones at soldiers who had helmets and equipment that would not allow them to be killed? SEVEN YEARS! – And how can you justify that the 18 year old settler who threw stones at civilians without any protection and who escaped being wounded or killed only by luck IS NOT EVEN ARRESTED??
Why and for what do we need new pathways to peace?? Give the human beings called Palestinians the same rights as the human beings called Jews – or, if you want, punish the humans called Jews the same way as the humans called Palestinians… Just restore what seems to be a basic right in a democracy: equality before the law…
I really don’t understand why you are searching for “pathways to peace” – we have them already. The Israeli government doesn’t implement them – that’s all. So what you really could do to forward peace is to get the Israeli government to remove the settlements of which every single one is illegal!
“Give them justice, they will give you peace” – that’s one of the many many inscriptions on the Wall. Which part of this sentence isn’t clear?
What a remarkably charged discussion! The issue here, however, is one of forced conscription, or “the Draft” which Israel has as a policy. I personally do not agree with this concept. How can an unwilling draftee be trusted by those around him? I can understand the Israeli logic on this because of manpower, but surely there are enough Israelis willing to volunteer to make this policy little more than a massive loyalty test. I do kind of wonder whether this is also an indoctrination mechanism, to ensure collective nationalist defensiveness through participation in what could be considered questionable military activity.
Being unwilling to fight for your country may be distasteful, but I don’t consider it an offense worthy of jail time.
Now, there is something amongst all this flame that I want to comment on. A post was made about Jewish/Israeli land being taken over by Palestinian squatters. When I checked out the link, it turned out to be in Jerusalem, as a result of the Security Wall that was built, the land in question being on the Non-Israeli? side. Now, all opinions as to the legitimacy of the Wall aside, isn’t this supposed to be the border of Israel proper? I mean, usually when one builds a great big honkin pile of concrete and barbed wire across a landscape, isn’t that an indication of a border? So, then, isn’t the land on the other side of that border, well, not Israel’s anymore?
Just wondering…
Eva, my idea, Selling a Vision of Hope, is “totally out of reality.” That’s why it would probably work. Because as things stand, reality sucks.
You speak passionately about injustices being perpetrated against Palestinians. I am against injustice, from whatever source, and I believe that Palestinians are entitled to justice. I seek a way to bring that about, and I’ve come up with a plan that I think could work.
If you improve the living conditions of people on the ground, with good paying jobs, with dignity, with an ideology that makes more sense, with hope, and with public diplomacy that is designed to sustain the hope, then you will condition people on both sides for peace, and prepare them for the compromises that must be made.
Palestinians and Israelis were not properly conditioned for the possibility of peace.
You feel that a military pullout, and abandonment of the settlements, etc. will bring peace. With all due respect, I disagree.
Ehud Barak, and Bill Clinton, put an offer on the table in the year 2000 that was very similar to your suggestions, and it didn’t work. The answer to the proposal was the second intifada.
The proposal included the following:
Between 94 and 96 percent of the West Bank.
1 to 3 percent of Israeli land to offset the 4 to 6 percent that Israel would keep.
All of Gaza.
A Palestinian state with Arab Jerusalem as its capital.
Complete control of East Jerusalem, and the Arab Quarter of the Old City, and the entire Temple Mount.
Israel would control the Western Wall.
Israel would accept a limited amount of refugees based on humanitarian grounds, but most refugees would live in Palestine.
30 billion dollars would be paid to refugees as compensation.
Most of the settlements would be dismantled.
That was the deal that was put on the table. Arafat did not respond, walked away, and a second Intifada ensued. That’s why I don’t agree that a simple withdrawal would work. It didn’t work in Gaza, and it wouldn’t work in the West Bank.
What is needed is a negotiated settlement, based on justice, and on fairness. I believe that Selling a Vision of Hope could condition people on both sides to make the painful concessions that they were not able to make in the past. Just as you can condition people to hate, so too can you condition people to begin to trust one another. And that would give the peace a much stronger foundation.
As for the Israeli government, I don’t know what they will allow, and what they won’t allow. But if a consensus is built around a Vision of Hope, I would expect that the Israeli governement, and the Palestinian government for that matter, would cooperate. In the final analysis, a peace built on justice is the only way to secure both peoples.
“Apparently correcting a bunch of nationalists is making us sound like our elders, well guys then we better stop correcting people’s false claims, and allow them to spam this site with total BS! If this is how our elders sounded like then I must tell them, kudos for putting the racists back in their place, and informing them of what they are generally clueless about.”
You don’t see the forest for the trees and will commit the same mistakes as those that came before you.
You will fight one another as will your children and maybe their children.
The reason this young man will go to jail is because his superiors understand the attitude of the folks that blog on this web.
The emotional angst that exists beyond controlled focus will not lead to peace or anything near it.
Perspective is relative, as is transgression, when dealing with issues of nation, property and the rights of a people.
Both sides have some valid arguments but neither are willing to step back and allow that to sink in, make concessions, and negotiate and therefore you chose to fight.
So be it. Then fight.
I wouldn’t classify the current discussion as a fight, but an honest exchange of opinions, perspectives and experiences. It’s true, they’re all subjective, but what we are doing is accomplishing the mission of the site: engaging in a fierce, but respectful, dialogue.
I learn more from threads in which participants challenge each other than I ever would from threads where we are forced to bury our fears, prejudices and pretend they do not exist. That’s not how peace will ever be achieved, and that’s not how we can begin to build a new Middle East where diversity of opinion and thought are welcome and tolerated.
If members at Mideast Youth mirrored the previous generations, ostracizing, censorship and squabbling would have been the norm. The idea of sharing a forum with an Israeli, letting alone exchanging dialogue, is unthinkable to most in our parents’ generation.
Looking back, I wonder whether our exchange with David should have been different, and whether we should have striven to understand what formed his radicalized views and challenged them accordingly. However, we live in the midst of the turmoil, and we’ve witnessed first hand how such extreme opinions have ripped the region apart. We’ve lived in the same circumstances yet aren’t preaching hatred.
And Nissim
While we always find it unpleasant when we find ourselves forced to remove someone from the site, we only do that with individuals who have proven to be virulent and continue to spread profanity and racism. You have always been extremely respectful in your posts and comments, and while I may disagree with you on certain points, I believe you’re actually a valuable addition to the site, and offer a fresh and interesting perspective. I look forward to reading your post on emotions in the Middle East
Poetic. But totally irrelevant.
In this thread, what you see is invalid claims being refuted, if you think that’s called “violence” and “fighting” then I feel sorry for you because it means you’re not used to being challenged, which is key to any form of “understanding.”
If you don’t want your arguments to be attacked, and racists to be ousted and condemned, false information to be refuted, how do you obtain your education and knowledge, and practice your values? Intelligent people are always accepting of their ideas being refuted, and should look forward to being more aware of some serious crimes for them to take the necessary steps to correct it. Only cowards are scared to be questioned, running away from a discussion by deceiving others through claiming it goes against the notion “peace.”
You love condemning “Islamic” terrorism and do so all the time but when we condemn other forms of terrorism it’s called “fighting,” I’m sensing hypocracy.
I know you’re trying hard to be the saving grace of this thread, but honestly, all you did was interrupt it. If you don’t want people to be challenged then go to Barney.com which has a more peaceful level of discourse. This site is for people who actually have the guts to have their opinions challenged, which is key to progress. We want to know what people think and if they are factually wrong then we want to correct them and vice versa. This is what dialogue means. No one said it’s nice and easy, to discuss this region’s ongoing war you must be prepared for people to question each other’s information and ethics, which comes with a lot of heat. If you can’t bare it then we never forced anyone to join.
Nissim,
I quoted you on numerous accounts and argued your points accordingly, if you misunderstand the point of my comment that’s hardly my problem.
Did you even read my comment? Because if you did actually read it you will notice that I referred to the Baha’i case as a specific “example” whereby your logic was applied, which I found to be dangerous and absurd. I could not have made it more simple.
As for the rest of your comment, I didn’t find that it actually refuted any of my other points.
This is insulting, thanks for getting personal again. If you honestly feel that you would get kicked off merely because of your opinion, you must not have respect for this site and the foundation that it was built upon. It shows that you don’t understand its purpose, don’t expose yourself to its often heated exchanges with other authors, and are not accepting of opinions being challenged. You must think so low of this place and have so much disrespect for what it represents in order to make such an unacceptable assumption. We have never been cheap enough to kick a person off this site simply because of a disagreement. Get some “common sense.”
Nissim,
The Germans ackowledged their crimes against the Jews, the Australians their crimes against the Aborigines, the Canadians their crimes against the Indians, etc. Maybe it is highly time that the Israelis acknowledge their crimes against the Palestinians.
In a few weeks it will be Yom Kippour, the Jewish great day of repentance and it would be a perfect occasion to do that. A collective “vidoui” (confession) of the Jewish sins against the Palestinian people.
According to the Jewish religion, the first step of repentance is to acknowledge and confess your sin(s). Without this first step, nothing can change and you can’t make your peace with God. So, it is the same thing if you want to make peace with the Palestinians, you have first to acknowledge and confess that you sinned against them…
Not very complicated to understand, huh? But maybe your brain is already too much rotten by hate for that and it is maybe too late to save you…
You are absolutely nuts and your statements are not factutal. It is the arabs that should be apologizing for their 60 years of aggression towards Israel. Israel owes no apology to anyone, least of all the arabs living within its borders. They have benefited from living in Israel as opposed to living in an arab country where their treatment would be worse than that of a donkey.
Australia made no apology to the aborigines, it was only the lame-arse politicians that apologized in the parliament. They have the support of only a few tree huggers and the aborigine population.
You too have been eating too much sand and smoking too much oil.
Esra’a, common sense is in short supply these days. But I’ll keep my eyes open and let you know when I find some.
For a man who believes in God, you cast aspersions rather loosely. Do you think that God would approve?
There is nothing wrong with confessing one’s sins. In this case, however, I think it’s a two way street.
Nissim, the oppressor always has the duty to apologize first. Your country is undoubtedly the most powerful amongst the two, currently Palestine doesn’t have enough crimes on its hands to apologize for anything. Again, some common sense in your arguments would be appreciated. Take what Shaul said seriously and stop making petty excuses just because your ego is too huge for you to do something as worthwhile and crucial as condemning and apologizing for the human rights crimes of your utterly abusive, racist and disrespectful government. The world is not willing to wait much longer.
The world was not willing to wait much longer in World War II, when one third of Jews were exterminated. The world let that happen, and didn’t care to “wait much longer.” And that extermination was the culmination of 2000 years of “utterly abusive, racist, and disrespectful” behavior against Jews.
Yes Israel is strong. But don’t kid yourself for a minute; Israel is taking a self-defense posture, because there are forces at work, even as we speak, which are plotting her demise, and which have been doing so since her inception.
Yes, Israel is an occupying force in parts of the West Bank, and yes there is grave injustice as a result, but that occupation resulted from a war of aggression against her, and an attempt to provide security for her citizens, 20% of whom are Israeli Arabs, the majority of whom wish to remain in Israel, under Israeli rule.
I am not discounting the injustice perpetrated against Palestinians. I abhor that. But as I said, there has been injustice done to people on both sides of the fence. The injutice perpetrated by Israel has to be perceived within the context of self-defense: defense against wars of aggression, defense against an onslaught of terrorist activity, defense against organizations whose charters vow Israel’s destruction, and defense against countries who are building weapon systems to destroy Israel.
The injutice is not a result of racism, or of a blood lust, or of disresepct, or of joy taken in abusive behavior, or of any of the motivations which spurred Nazi injustice and the like. If you don’t put this in the proper context, you will never make sense of it.
My approach is not based on apologies. I didn’t see anyone apologizing when Egypt and Jordan made peace with Israel. My approach is to build a factory in the West Bank which creates good paying green technology jobs. My wife and I would be willing to move over there to try to make this project a success, thus attracting worldwide attention and investment funds for more such projects, for more such jobs, for more protection of the environment, and for more neutralizing of hate. In this way, with God’s help, people will begin to condition themselves for the possibility of peace.
I can’t make nations apologize. But I may be able to help create some jobs. I want to do what I can, and I pray that what I can do will help to restore justice, and to give Palestinians the Peace, Prosperity, and Freedom that they rightly deserve.
Nissim, it is incredibly disturbing the way you are trying to win pity and divert attention from the real topic (due to your evidenced lack of awareness) by bringing up the Holocaust. I said it before and I’ll say it again; what the Jewish population went through was horrible but it is not a decent way to justify inexcusable crimes taking place by the Israeli government today.
Have some respect for these victims, instead of using them as tools to further a profane political agenda.
The Palestinians can say the same, judging what they have suffered through in the hands of your corrupt government, for many decades.
All terrorists claim that they react based on “self-defense,” again you fail to be objective, and fail to use your common sense. With this logic everyone would have the “right” to dismantle people’s homes, build illegal settlements in their territory, and invade other countries. With this poor logic you are practically justifying what Hezbollah do in Lebanon and Palestine against Israeli aggression.
No, it is based in denial, arrogance, and superiority.
The only thing you have excelled at in this thread is being idealistic; disrespecting Palestinians and Arabs and then claiming that you wish them freedom. You do not make a compelling argument on their behalf at all, all you worry about is yourself, and your own freedom, and feeding your paranoia at the expense of their blood and future.
You can start by educating yourself on what is happening and what you’re unaware of. Try to see beyond Israeli propaganda.
Well, at least I have you talking about “common sense.” That’s a good start.
Idealism is also a good start, but it’s nothing without action on the ground that gives expression to the intent. I hope to help create facts that will one day speak louder than words.
Well Esra’a, we can respectfully agree to disagree. You take a lot of stock in apologies, I don’t, especially when it comes to nation states. Most apologies ring hollow for me, and come off as a bit contrived. A mass murderer stands in court and says, “I’m sorry your honor.” Big deal. It doesn’t do much for me. But I respect that you believe deeply in what you say, and I respect as well the opportunity you give me to disagree.
David,
If there is a donkey here, it is you. But in fact donkeys are smarter and kinder than you… I don’t understand exactly what you are doing here, except inciting. But since the administrators of this site seem to have an infinite patience with hopeless cases like you, I suppose that we will suffer your naughty dumbness for a while still…
Nissim,
First, why do you think that I believe in God, in spite the fact that I am a resolute atheist? What I said about Yom Kippour and Jewish repentance is what we call an analogy. I thought that it could speak to you since you seem to be a proud patriotic Jew, who should know something about his own tradition. This kind of repentance works the same way with human beings. If you want somebody who you offended to forgive you, you have first to recognize your wrong-doing towards him, and then to apologize for it. Only so he can completely forgive you. Don’t you feel the same way about people who offeded you?
In the case of the Israelo-Palestinian conflict, the offenders are clearly the Zionist Jews who settled on Palestinian land and established a state for themselves without taking into account the presence and the will of the local Palestinian population, which was at the end of the process largely expelled and displaced, without any compensation.
To refuse to recognize this basic historical fact is like if the Germans were still refusing to recognize their responsability in the Holocaust and refusing to apologize to the Jews for that and to compensate them.
In the same way, to systematically call the violent actions of the Israeli armed forces against the Palestinians “self-defense” is a bit like if the Germans had called the ruthless crushing of the Jewish revolt in the Warsaw Ghetto “self-defence against terrorists”, which the did indeed… Juergen Stroop, the commander of the German forces in Warsaw saw himself like the Roman general Titus crushing the Jewish revolt in Jerusalem in year 70. But here now the role of the Germans or the Romans is played by the Jews, which is really a very sad irony of history… Isn’t it highly time to put an quick end to that absurd situation for the sake of the Jews too, not only the Palestinians? Do you really like to be in that kind of role as a Jew?
Shaul, first of all, with a name like “Shaul,” how could you possibly be a “resolute atheist?” And what is a “resolute theist,” anyway? Someone who most definitely does not believe in God? How could you be so sure about something a amorphous as God?
If the universe exists, doesn’t it make sense that something created it? Suppose we say it was The Big Bang? Would you go along with that? Now suppose we say that The Big Bang is God? Would you then believe in God? What’s the difference between The Big Bang and God? Both are reputed to have created the universe? It’s just a thought. But isn’t a lot of this a matter of semantics, and not really belief?
But more to the point, if I thought that apologizing would bring peace, I would be the first to do it. But I don’t think it would work, and I think it would be dangerous for Israel to do it alone, because certain people would take that apology as an admission that Israel’s existence is not legitimate. And I don’t thing that’s true in the slightest.
People offend me all day long, and I don’t expect apologies. Life is too short. But I don’t give up on people easily. I usually do everything I can to connect, and hope that a human connection could make a difference. For example, if Israel did something substantial to turn the Palestinian economy around, that would be an admission of sorts, but everyone could still hold their heads up high.
With all due respect, Shaul, not quite. A lot of the land was first purchased by the Jews from absentee Arab landlords. Also, before declaring a state, the Jews agreed to the 1947 partition plan proposed by the UN which split the land. The Arabs refused, and invaded instead. Also, the Palestinians were not “expelled.” As the War of Independence progressed, several strategically positioned towns were uprooted by the military for security purposes, but the vast majority of Palestinians left voluntarily, although in fear, due to the urging of invading Arab countries who said that Israel would soon be destroyed and they could then come back to your homes.
Israel never intended to expell the 700,000 Palestinians who left. As proof of that, many Palestinians remained, and became Israeli citizens, and now constitute 20% of Israel. They are discriminated against, it’s true, but they enjoy full citizenship and the rights that pertain to that status. The discrimination is being challenged vigorously in the courts and by various organizations.
I also don’t think that it is fair to compare the Israel/Palestinian conflict to the genocide perpetrated by the Germans. The Israel/ Palestinian conflict is about whose land this is, and there is a strong current of self-defense on both sides of the conflict. The German attrocity was genocide against a people of a certain religion, based purely on racist, supremacist, and bloodthristy ideas. Israel has never acted in this manner, nor has it been judged as such in any tribunal with appropriate jurisdiction.
Yes.
No.
The question is how to bring that change about. Good people on both sides can honestly disagree. I don’t think that apologies are the way to go. I think that Israel and the West should invest heavily in the West Bank, and even in Gaza, to create jobs which protect the environment, and which help to revitalize the Palestinian economy, and which help to protect the environment, and which help to restore Arab pride, and which help to neutralize extremist thinking.
It will be an “apology” of sorts, but one rooted in substance, and with a much greater chance of success.
Nissim,
I think this will be my last comment here. Reading what you say – I, who live in the midst of all this mess – makes me s… . Sorry to be so blunt.
Would you please try to get back on the solid ground? Your dreams are nice, but don’t you see that neither most of my fellow citizens nor my government doesn’t care a d*mn about how Palestininans live or die? Why did you avoid to reply to my questions about injustice?
No that you question a persons atheims because of his name (??) – let’s talk about YOUR faith. Are you familiar with HALACHA [Jewish religious law]? Do you know what are the laws concerning pregnant women and all the more women giving birth? Do you know about the laws that are meant to preserve human life?
If not, I’ll come back and give you links and quotes. If yes, then please tell me how you see a 19 year old Jewish brat in uniform who feels like GOD because he has a weapon and is allowed to decided over life and death? – Pregnant women about to give birth come to a checkpoint in order to get either to a Palestinian hospital (not every village has a hospital, not even in the US) or, in difficult cases to get to an Israeli one? (Some of our hospitals are the best in the region and people come from all over the region to get help there…) and this brat in uniform decides to delay her? Not to let her through? To make her wait – just so, for no reason.. Or could you give me any reason why to delay a woman in labour-pains?? – The woman dies (it happened more than once, please don’t even try to deny it) – or the child dies (several dozens of babies have died this way). This brat – an Israeli soldier! representing YOUR honor as a Jew and Israeli – a child of the state that you say should be “a light upon the nations” – has violated EVERY EXISTING HUMAN LAW - our own religious law, the laws of human rights, … In my eyes he has committed a murder – in religious law he would be qualified like this as well – but he goes free. No punishment. He has deliberately killed “the universe” as the Kabalah says. He has killed a human being – for no reason at all.
Are you proud of this soldier? Are you proud of this army? What security measures did he obey in order to kill a mother or a newborn???
Nissim. You should be ashamed of what this army does to us! You should blush of shame of how these “soldiers” dishonor our names as Jews, Israelis and humans!
By the way – are you aware that the Israeli army has copied more than one measure of our great Master, the SS? – Are you aware that in Israel the “Judenpolizei” is re-installed? Of course not “Juden”-polizei – would we opress ourselves – no, but “Palestinian-Polizei”!! Another honorable deed of our “Security Service” (did you know that SS means “Schutz-Staffe” = “Security-Service”?) … I’m REALLY “proud” of my army – aren’t you as well??
Nissim,
Watch this – one of the many, many videos available…
I could give you dozens, and they are NOT propaganda…
Nissim,
Your first remarks are completely ridiculous and nonsensical. What does my name have to do with my religious, or non-religious more exactly, convictions?
God and the Big Bang are two competely different concepts. God is a question of faith, a projection of the human mind, to fill a psychological need. The Big Bang is a recent scientific theory, widely accepted now by the scientific community because it allows to explain in the most satisfactory way the natural phenomena observed in the universe. God doesn’t explain anything, it just add mystery to the incomprehensible. It is foremost an authoritarian principe projected in the “sky” to allow small groups of people to control whole societies. As it is told by the religions themselves, like Judaism, Islam and Christianity, it is kind of a celestial king and father, a kind of oriental despot with absolute power in fact, which is not very surprising, the model having been the Assyrian or Persian kings, who encouraged and organized that kind of belief in order to secure obedience among the peoples they subjugated…
Concerning the question of “apology”, one last word, and I will stop with that too, because it is a waste of time to “discuss” with unrepentant Israeli supremacists like you: just imagine that the Germans would have never recognized their responsability in the Holocaust and would have never apologized to the Jews for that and never agreed to give them some compensation. Do you really think that the Jews would have lived in peace with that situation and would have agreed to established again friendly relations with the Germans, like it is the case today? Today, the Jews, including the Israelis, are far more friendly with the Germans than with the Arabs, and are far more willing to speak German than Arabic, which in my eyes is pretty absurd…
Does have apology really nothing to do with that? Your line of argumentation is so biased and dull-witted that it is sickening.
Thank you for that Eva.
My wife and I like to take morning walks. I drive her a little nuts sometimes. As we are walking, I see earthworms on the road. They got there because it was raining the night before, and they were lured onto the pavement. I know they won’t survive the hot sun. So usually I pick them up and put them back onto the earth. I believe in life, and I loathe the suffering that abounds all around us.
Let me be clear. I detest the occupation. I detest the fence. I detest the checkpoints. And I certainly detest bringing any harm on anyone, particularly pregnant women.
We have no issue on that score. Our issue is one of methodology. Because the issues you talk about carry so much moral weight, we must find a solution that actually does something to improve the situation. You believe in exposing the atrocities. I think that could help, but it is not enough to close the deal. And if we don’t close the deal on peace, it is almost as if we don’t care. Good intentions are not enough.
The most powerful force in today’s globalized world is the economy. People need to make a living, for everything else to fall into place. In addition, people are beginning to worry seriously about the degradation of the environment. And in addition, as well, the prevalence of ideological extremism is also a concern.
Imagine that Peace is a spaceship, like the spaceship Enterprise on Star Trek. If you want to power that spaceship, if you want to give substance to the hope for peace, you can propel that ship with three powerful engines: a solution for the economy, a solution for the environment, and a solution for extremism.
Selling a Vision of Hope could accomplish all three in one shot, and in fact, for any one to be solved, you will have to address all three.
I am not against what you are doing. And no, I am not proud of a lot of what is happening in the West Bank. I just want to help create something substantively that could change that situation for the better. There is no reason why people of good will could not work together, in their own ways, to give substance to their dreams.
Shaul, your name in Hebrew is Saul, who was the first king of the Jews. So you’re being a resolute atheist just struck me as a bit funny, that’s all.
Maybe, maybe not, Shaul. Think of it. Some 13.7 billion years ago there was nothing, not even time or space, and all of a sudden, there’s a big explosion, and instantly there is everything, the entire universe in all its glory.
Imagine the amount of energy it took to do that, and the intelligence as well. Science could try to describe it, but will never be able to fully understand it. Why can’t we call that energy, and that intelligence God? If the word God means anything, it means the kind of power that could pull something like the Big Bang off. Therefore, I think of God as the sum total of all the creative energy in the universe. “He” is like an artist on a rampage, painting at will, with each brush stroke containing billions of heavenly bodies.
When you talk about religion, that’s a horse of a different color altogether. Religion is not God. God is God. Religion tries to give us an image of Him, but so very often, that image is tainted by the political calculations of the moment. But when religion does it’s job properly, it could help us to conduct ourselves with honor and within an ethical framework, and help us appreciate the wondrous mystery that is God.
You keep calling me a “supremacist.” I prefer to think of myself as a Village Idiot. But I take comfort in knowing that even an idiot can stumble upon something important.
I guess I’m not all that repentant. Even on Yom Kippur, in the synagogue, I don’t repent all that well, to tell you the truth. But I do believe in Selling a Vision of Hope. And I will do what I can to give substance to that vision. If I succeed, maybe I’ll have less to repent for.
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