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God and the Big Bang are two completely different concepts.

Maybe, maybe not, Shaul. Think of it. Some 13.7 billion years ago there was nothing, not even time or space, and all of a sudden, there’s a big explosion, and instantly there is everything, the entire universe in all its glory.

Imagine the amount of energy it took to do that, and the intelligence as well. Science could try to describe it, but will never be able to fully understand it. Why can’t we call that energy, and that intelligence God? If the word God means anything, it means the kind of power that could pull something like the Big Bang off. Therefore, I think of God as the sum total of all the creative energy in the universe. “He” is like an artist on a rampage, painting at will, with each brush stroke containing billions of heavenly bodies.

When you talk about religion, that’s a horse of a different color altogether. Religion is not God. God is God. Religion tries to give us an image of Him, but so very often, that image is tainted by the political calculations of the moment. But when religion does it’s job properly, it could help us to conduct ourselves with honor and within an ethical framework, and help us appreciate the wondrous mystery that is God.

…unrepentant Israeli supremacists like you…

You keep calling me a “supremacist.” I prefer to think of myself as a Village Idiot. But I take comfort in knowing that even an idiot can stumble upon something important.

I guess I’m not all that repentant. Even on Yom Kippur, in the synagogue, I don’t repent all that well, to tell you the truth. But I do believe in Selling a Vision of Hope. And I will do what I can to give substance to that vision. If I succeed, maybe I’ll have less to repent for.

Your dreams are nice…

Thank you for that Eva.

My wife and I like to take morning walks. I drive her a little nuts sometimes. As we are walking, I see earthworms on the road. They got there because it was raining the night before, and they were lured onto the pavement. I know they won’t survive the hot sun. So usually I pick them up and put them back onto the earth. I believe in life, and I loathe the suffering that abounds all around us.

Let me be clear. I detest the occupation. I detest the fence. I detest the checkpoints. And I certainly detest bringing any harm on anyone, particularly pregnant women.

We have no issue on that score. Our issue is one of methodology. Because the issues you talk about carry so much moral weight, we must find a solution that actually does something to improve the situation. You believe in exposing the atrocities. I think that could help, but it is not enough to close the deal. And if we don’t close the deal on peace, it is almost as if we don’t care. Good intentions are not enough.

The most powerful force in today’s globalized world is the economy. People need to make a living, for everything else to fall into place. In addition, people are beginning to worry seriously about the degradation of the environment. And in addition, as well, the prevalence of ideological extremism is also a concern.

Imagine that Peace is a spaceship, like the spaceship Enterprise on Star Trek. If you want to power that spaceship, if you want to give substance to the hope for peace, you can propel that ship with three powerful engines: a solution for the economy, a solution for the environment, and a solution for extremism.

Selling a Vision of Hope could accomplish all three in one shot, and in fact, for any one to be solved, you will have to address all three.

I am not against what you are doing. And no, I am not proud of a lot of what is happening in the West Bank. I just want to help create something substantively that could change that situation for the better. There is no reason why people of good will could not work together, in their own ways, to give substance to their dreams.

Your first remarks are completely ridiculous and nonsensical. What does my name have to do with my religious, or non-religious more exactly, convictions?
God and the Big Bang are two competely different concepts. God is a question of faith, a projection of the human mind, to fill a psychological need. The Big Bang is a recent scientific theory, widely accepted now by the scientific community because it allows to explain in the most satisfactory way the natural phenomena observed in the universe. God doesn’t explain anything, it just add mystery to the incomprehensible. It is foremost an authoritarian principe projected in the “sky” to allow small groups of people to control whole societies. As it is told by the religions themselves, like Judaism, Islam and Christianity, it is kind of a celestial king and father, a kind of oriental despot with absolute power in fact, which is not very surprising, the model having been the Assyrian or Persian kings, who encouraged and organized that kind of belief in order to secure obedience among the peoples they subjugated…

Concerning the question of “apology”, one last word, and I will stop with that too, because it is a waste of time to “discuss” with unrepentant Israeli supremacists like you: just imagine that the Germans would have never recognized their responsability in the Holocaust and would have never apologized to the Jews for that and never agreed to give them some compensation. Do you really think that the Jews would have lived in peace with that situation and would have agreed to established again friendly relations with the Germans, like it is the case today? Today, the Jews, including the Israelis, are far more friendly with the Germans than with the Arabs, and are far more willing to speak German than Arabic, which in my eyes is pretty absurd…

Does have apology really nothing to do with that? Your line of argumentation is so biased and dull-witted that it is sickening.

Watch this – one of the many, many videos available…
I could give you dozens, and they are NOT propaganda…

I think this will be my last comment here. Reading what you say – I, who live in the midst of all this mess – makes me s… . Sorry to be so blunt.

Would you please try to get back on the solid ground? Your dreams are nice, but don’t you see that neither most of my fellow citizens nor my government doesn’t care a d*mn about how Palestininans live or die? Why did you avoid to reply to my questions about injustice?

No that you question a persons atheims because of his name (??) – let’s talk about YOUR faith. Are you familiar with HALACHA [Jewish religious law]? Do you know what are the laws concerning pregnant women and all the more women giving birth? Do you know about the laws that are meant to preserve human life?

If not, I’ll come back and give you links and quotes. If yes, then please tell me how you see a 19 year old Jewish brat in uniform who feels like GOD because he has a weapon and is allowed to decided over life and death? – Pregnant women about to give birth come to a checkpoint in order to get either to a Palestinian hospital (not every village has a hospital, not even in the US) or, in difficult cases to get to an Israeli one? (Some of our hospitals are the best in the region and people come from all over the region to get help there…) and this brat in uniform decides to delay her? Not to let her through? To make her wait – just so, for no reason.. Or could you give me any reason why to delay a woman in labour-pains?? – The woman dies (it happened more than once, please don’t even try to deny it) – or the child dies (several dozens of babies have died this way). This brat – an Israeli soldier! representing YOUR honor as a Jew and Israeli – a child of the state that you say should be “a light upon the nations” – has violated EVERY EXISTING HUMAN LAW - our own religious law, the laws of human rights, … In my eyes he has committed a murder – in religious law he would be qualified like this as well – but he goes free. No punishment. He has deliberately killed “the universe” as the Kabalah says. He has killed a human being – for no reason at all.

Are you proud of this soldier? Are you proud of this army? What security measures did he obey in order to kill a mother or a newborn???

Nissim. You should be ashamed of what this army does to us! You should blush of shame of how these “soldiers” dishonor our names as Jews, Israelis and humans!

By the way – are you aware that the Israeli army has copied more than one measure of our great Master, the SS? – Are you aware that in Israel the “Judenpolizei” is re-installed? Of course not “Juden”-polizei – would we opress ourselves – no, but “Palestinian-Polizei”!! Another honorable deed of our “Security Service” (did you know that SS means “Schutz-Staffe” = “Security-Service”?) … I’m REALLY “proud” of my army – aren’t you as well??

If the universe exists, doesn’t it make sense that something created it? Suppose we say it was The Big Bang? Would you go along with that? Now suppose we say that The Big Bang is God? Would you then believe in God? What’s the difference between The Big Bang and God? Both are reputed to have created the universe? It’s just a thought. But isn’t a lot of this a matter of semantics, and not really belief?

But more to the point, if I thought that apologizing would bring peace, I would be the first to do it. But I don’t think it would work, and I think it would be dangerous for Israel to do it alone, because certain people would take that apology as an admission that Israel’s existence is not legitimate. And I don’t thing that’s true in the slightest.

Don’t you feel the same way about people who offended you?

People offend me all day long, and I don’t expect apologies. Life is too short. But I don’t give up on people easily. I usually do everything I can to connect, and hope that a human connection could make a difference. For example, if Israel did something substantial to turn the Palestinian economy around, that would be an admission of sorts, but everyone could still hold their heads up high.

In the case of the Israel-Palestinian conflict, the offenders are clearly the Zionist Jews who settled on Palestinian land and established a state for themselves without taking into account the presence and the will of the local Palestinian population, which was at the end of the process largely expelled and displaced, without any compensation.

With all due respect, Shaul, not quite. A lot of the land was first purchased by the Jews from absentee Arab landlords. Also, before declaring a state, the Jews agreed to the 1947 partition plan proposed by the UN which split the land. The Arabs refused, and invaded instead. Also, the Palestinians were not “expelled.” As the War of Independence progressed, several strategically positioned towns were uprooted by the military for security purposes, but the vast majority of Palestinians left voluntarily, although in fear, due to the urging of invading Arab countries who said that Israel would soon be destroyed and they could then come back to your homes.

Israel never intended to expell the 700,000 Palestinians who left. As proof of that, many Palestinians remained, and became Israeli citizens, and now constitute 20% of Israel. They are discriminated against, it’s true, but they enjoy full citizenship and the rights that pertain to that status. The discrimination is being challenged vigorously in the courts and by various organizations.

I also don’t think that it is fair to compare the Israel/Palestinian conflict to the genocide perpetrated by the Germans. The Israel/ Palestinian conflict is about whose land this is, and there is a strong current of self-defense on both sides of the conflict. The German attrocity was genocide against a people of a certain religion, based purely on racist, supremacist, and bloodthristy ideas. Israel has never acted in this manner, nor has it been judged as such in any tribunal with appropriate jurisdiction.

Isn’t it highly time to put a quick end to that absurd situation for the sake of the Jews too, not only the Palestinians?

Yes.

Do you really like to be in that kind of role as a Jew?

No.

The question is how to bring that change about. Good people on both sides can honestly disagree. I don’t think that apologies are the way to go. I think that Israel and the West should invest heavily in the West Bank, and even in Gaza, to create jobs which protect the environment, and which help to revitalize the Palestinian economy, and which help to protect the environment, and which help to restore Arab pride, and which help to neutralize extremist thinking.

It will be an “apology” of sorts, but one rooted in substance, and with a much greater chance of success.

If there is a donkey here, it is you. But in fact donkeys are smarter and kinder than you… I don’t understand exactly what you are doing here, except inciting. But since the administrators of this site seem to have an infinite patience with hopeless cases like you, I suppose that we will suffer your naughty dumbness for a while still…

Nissim,

First, why do you think that I believe in God, in spite the fact that I am a resolute atheist? What I said about Yom Kippour and Jewish repentance is what we call an analogy. I thought that it could speak to you since you seem to be a proud patriotic Jew, who should know something about his own tradition. This kind of repentance works the same way with human beings. If you want somebody who you offended to forgive you, you have first to recognize your wrong-doing towards him, and then to apologize for it. Only so he can completely forgive you. Don’t you feel the same way about people who offeded you?

In the case of the Israelo-Palestinian conflict, the offenders are clearly the Zionist Jews who settled on Palestinian land and established a state for themselves without taking into account the presence and the will of the local Palestinian population, which was at the end of the process largely expelled and displaced, without any compensation.

To refuse to recognize this basic historical fact is like if the Germans were still refusing to recognize their responsability in the Holocaust and refusing to apologize to the Jews for that and to compensate them.

In the same way, to systematically call the violent actions of the Israeli armed forces against the Palestinians “self-defense” is a bit like if the Germans had called the ruthless crushing of the Jewish revolt in the Warsaw Ghetto “self-defence against terrorists”, which the did indeed… Juergen Stroop, the commander of the German forces in Warsaw saw himself like the Roman general Titus crushing the Jewish revolt in Jerusalem in year 70. But here now the role of the Germans or the Romans is played by the Jews, which is really a very sad irony of history… Isn’t it highly time to put an quick end to that absurd situation for the sake of the Jews too, not only the Palestinians? Do you really like to be in that kind of role as a Jew?

…again you fail to be objective, and fail to use your common sense.

Well, at least I have you talking about “common sense.” That’s a good start.

The only thing you have excelled at in this thread is being idealistic.

Idealism is also a good start, but it’s nothing without action on the ground that gives expression to the intent. I hope to help create facts that will one day speak louder than words.

Well Esra’a, we can respectfully agree to disagree. You take a lot of stock in apologies, I don’t, especially when it comes to nation states. Most apologies ring hollow for me, and come off as a bit contrived. A mass murderer stands in court and says, “I’m sorry your honor.” Big deal. It doesn’t do much for me. But I respect that you believe deeply in what you say, and I respect as well the opportunity you give me to disagree.

Have some respect for these victims, instead of using them as tools to further a profane political agenda.

there are forces at work, even as we speak, which are plotting her demise

The Palestinians can say the same, judging what they have suffered through in the hands of your corrupt government, for many decades.

self-defense

All terrorists claim that they react based on “self-defense,” again you fail to be objective, and fail to use your common sense. With this logic everyone would have the “right” to dismantle people’s homes, build illegal settlements in their territory, and invade other countries. With this poor logic you are practically justifying what Hezbollah do in Lebanon and Palestine against Israeli aggression.

My approach is not based on apologies.

No, it is based in denial, arrogance, and superiority.

and to give Palestinians the Peace, Prosperity, and Freedom that they rightly deserve.

The only thing you have excelled at in this thread is being idealistic; disrespecting Palestinians and Arabs and then claiming that you wish them freedom. You do not make a compelling argument on their behalf at all, all you worry about is yourself, and your own freedom, and feeding your paranoia at the expense of their blood and future.

I want to do what I can

You can start by educating yourself on what is happening and what you’re unaware of. Try to see beyond Israeli propaganda.

The world is not willing to wait much longer.

The world was not willing to wait much longer in World War II, when one third of Jews were exterminated. The world let that happen, and didn’t care to “wait much longer.” And that extermination was the culmination of 2000 years of “utterly abusive, racist, and disrespectful” behavior against Jews.

Yes Israel is strong. But don’t kid yourself for a minute; Israel is taking a self-defense posture, because there are forces at work, even as we speak, which are plotting her demise, and which have been doing so since her inception.

Yes, Israel is an occupying force in parts of the West Bank, and yes there is grave injustice as a result, but that occupation resulted from a war of aggression against her, and an attempt to provide security for her citizens, 20% of whom are Israeli Arabs, the majority of whom wish to remain in Israel, under Israeli rule.

I am not discounting the injustice perpetrated against Palestinians. I abhor that. But as I said, there has been injustice done to people on both sides of the fence. The injutice perpetrated by Israel has to be perceived within the context of self-defense: defense against wars of aggression, defense against an onslaught of terrorist activity, defense against organizations whose charters vow Israel’s destruction, and defense against countries who are building weapon systems to destroy Israel.

The injutice is not a result of racism, or of a blood lust, or of disresepct, or of joy taken in abusive behavior, or of any of the motivations which spurred Nazi injustice and the like. If you don’t put this in the proper context, you will never make sense of it.

My approach is not based on apologies. I didn’t see anyone apologizing when Egypt and Jordan made peace with Israel. My approach is to build a factory in the West Bank which creates good paying green technology jobs. My wife and I would be willing to move over there to try to make this project a success, thus attracting worldwide attention and investment funds for more such projects, for more such jobs, for more protection of the environment, and for more neutralizing of hate. In this way, with God’s help, people will begin to condition themselves for the possibility of peace.

I can’t make nations apologize. But I may be able to help create some jobs. I want to do what I can, and I pray that what I can do will help to restore justice, and to give Palestinians the Peace, Prosperity, and Freedom that they rightly deserve.

Get some “common sense.”

Esra’a, common sense is in short supply these days. But I’ll keep my eyes open and let you know when I find some.

But maybe your brain is already too much rotten by hate for that and it is maybe too late to save you…

For a man who believes in God, you cast aspersions rather loosely. Do you think that God would approve?

There is nothing wrong with confessing one’s sins. In this case, however, I think it’s a two way street.

The Germans ackowledged their crimes against the Jews, the Australians their crimes against the Aborigines, the Canadians their crimes against the Indians, etc. Maybe it is highly time that the Israelis acknowledge their crimes against the Palestinians.

In a few weeks it will be Yom Kippour, the Jewish great day of repentance and it would be a perfect occasion to do that. A collective “vidoui” (confession) of the Jewish sins against the Palestinian people.

According to the Jewish religion, the first step of repentance is to acknowledge and confess your sin(s). Without this first step, nothing can change and you can’t make your peace with God. So, it is the same thing if you want to make peace with the Palestinians, you have first to acknowledge and confess that you sinned against them…

Not very complicated to understand, huh? But maybe your brain is already too much rotten by hate for that and it is maybe too late to save you…

It seems to me, Esra’a, that you enjoy arguing with yourself. You put words in my mouth, words I never said, and inflame yourself with those same words.

I quoted you on numerous accounts and argued your points accordingly, if you misunderstand the point of my comment that’s hardly my problem.

You say that I want you to be silent about the Baha’i. I never said that.

Did you even read my comment? Because if you did actually read it you will notice that I referred to the Baha’i case as a specific “example” whereby your logic was applied, which I found to be dangerous and absurd. I could not have made it more simple.

As for the rest of your comment, I didn’t find that it actually refuted any of my other points.

If I don’t end up getting kicked off this site

This is insulting, thanks for getting personal again. If you honestly feel that you would get kicked off merely because of your opinion, you must not have respect for this site and the foundation that it was built upon. It shows that you don’t understand its purpose, don’t expose yourself to its often heated exchanges with other authors, and are not accepting of opinions being challenged. You must think so low of this place and have so much disrespect for what it represents in order to make such an unacceptable assumption. We have never been cheap enough to kick a person off this site simply because of a disagreement. Get some “common sense.”

You don’t see the forest for the trees and will commit the same mistakes as those that came before you.
You will fight one another as will your children and maybe their children.

Poetic. But totally irrelevant.

In this thread, what you see is invalid claims being refuted, if you think that’s called “violence” and “fighting” then I feel sorry for you because it means you’re not used to being challenged, which is key to any form of “understanding.”

If you don’t want your arguments to be attacked, and racists to be ousted and condemned, false information to be refuted, how do you obtain your education and knowledge, and practice your values? Intelligent people are always accepting of their ideas being refuted, and should look forward to being more aware of some serious crimes for them to take the necessary steps to correct it. Only cowards are scared to be questioned, running away from a discussion by deceiving others through claiming it goes against the notion “peace.”

You love condemning “Islamic” terrorism and do so all the time but when we condemn other forms of terrorism it’s called “fighting,” I’m sensing hypocracy.

Both sides have some valid arguments but neither are willing to step back and allow that to sink in, make concessions, and negotiate and therefore you chose to fight.

I know you’re trying hard to be the saving grace of this thread, but honestly, all you did was interrupt it. If you don’t want people to be challenged then go to Barney.com which has a more peaceful level of discourse. This site is for people who actually have the guts to have their opinions challenged, which is key to progress. We want to know what people think and if they are factually wrong then we want to correct them and vice versa. This is what dialogue means. No one said it’s nice and easy, to discuss this region’s ongoing war you must be prepared for people to question each other’s information and ethics, which comes with a lot of heat. If you can’t bare it then we never forced anyone to join.

So be it. Then fight.

I wouldn’t classify the current discussion as a fight, but an honest exchange of opinions, perspectives and experiences. It’s true, they’re all subjective, but what we are doing is accomplishing the mission of the site: engaging in a fierce, but respectful, dialogue.

I learn more from threads in which participants challenge each other than I ever would from threads where we are forced to bury our fears, prejudices and pretend they do not exist. That’s not how peace will ever be achieved, and that’s not how we can begin to build a new Middle East where diversity of opinion and thought are welcome and tolerated.

If members at Mideast Youth mirrored the previous generations, ostracizing, censorship and squabbling would have been the norm. The idea of sharing a forum with an Israeli, letting alone exchanging dialogue, is unthinkable to most in our parents’ generation.

Looking back, I wonder whether our exchange with David should have been different, and whether we should have striven to understand what formed his radicalized views and challenged them accordingly. However, we live in the midst of the turmoil, and we’ve witnessed first hand how such extreme opinions have ripped the region apart. We’ve lived in the same circumstances yet aren’t preaching hatred.

And Nissim

If I don’t end up getting kicked off this site

While we always find it unpleasant when we find ourselves forced to remove someone from the site, we only do that with individuals who have proven to be virulent and continue to spread profanity and racism. You have always been extremely respectful in your posts and comments, and while I may disagree with you on certain points, I believe you’re actually a valuable addition to the site, and offer a fresh and interesting perspective. I look forward to reading your post on emotions in the Middle East

You don’t see the forest for the trees and will commit the same mistakes as those that came before you.
You will fight one another as will your children and maybe their children.

The reason this young man will go to jail is because his superiors understand the attitude of the folks that blog on this web.

The emotional angst that exists beyond controlled focus will not lead to peace or anything near it.

Perspective is relative, as is transgression, when dealing with issues of nation, property and the rights of a people.

Both sides have some valid arguments but neither are willing to step back and allow that to sink in, make concessions, and negotiate and therefore you chose to fight.

So be it. Then fight.

I find your idea totally out of reality.

Eva, my idea, Selling a Vision of Hope, is “totally out of reality.” That’s why it would probably work. Because as things stand, reality sucks.

You speak passionately about injustices being perpetrated against Palestinians. I am against injustice, from whatever source, and I believe that Palestinians are entitled to justice. I seek a way to bring that about, and I’ve come up with a plan that I think could work.

If you improve the living conditions of people on the ground, with good paying jobs, with dignity, with an ideology that makes more sense, with hope, and with public diplomacy that is designed to sustain the hope, then you will condition people on both sides for peace, and prepare them for the compromises that must be made.

Palestinians and Israelis were not properly conditioned for the possibility of peace.

You feel that a military pullout, and abandonment of the settlements, etc. will bring peace. With all due respect, I disagree.

Ehud Barak, and Bill Clinton, put an offer on the table in the year 2000 that was very similar to your suggestions, and it didn’t work. The answer to the proposal was the second intifada.

The proposal included the following:

Between 94 and 96 percent of the West Bank.

1 to 3 percent of Israeli land to offset the 4 to 6 percent that Israel would keep.

All of Gaza.

A Palestinian state with Arab Jerusalem as its capital.

Complete control of East Jerusalem, and the Arab Quarter of the Old City, and the entire Temple Mount.

Israel would control the Western Wall.

Israel would accept a limited amount of refugees based on humanitarian grounds, but most refugees would live in Palestine.

30 billion dollars would be paid to refugees as compensation.

Most of the settlements would be dismantled.

That was the deal that was put on the table. Arafat did not respond, walked away, and a second Intifada ensued. That’s why I don’t agree that a simple withdrawal would work. It didn’t work in Gaza, and it wouldn’t work in the West Bank.

What is needed is a negotiated settlement, based on justice, and on fairness. I believe that Selling a Vision of Hope could condition people on both sides to make the painful concessions that they were not able to make in the past. Just as you can condition people to hate, so too can you condition people to begin to trust one another. And that would give the peace a much stronger foundation.

As for the Israeli government, I don’t know what they will allow, and what they won’t allow. But if a consensus is built around a Vision of Hope, I would expect that the Israeli governement, and the Palestinian government for that matter, would cooperate. In the final analysis, a peace built on justice is the only way to secure both peoples.

I find your idea totally out of reality. Have you ever checked with the Israeli government if they would actually let you do what you suggest? I am not so sure about it.

My main question to you is why you think that one needs to suggest any new pathway to peace? What’s wrong with what has been elaborated, agreed upon several times, signed and signed again, declared and re-declared: that the Israelis must remove the settlements from the WB. That the Israel army must get out of the WB. That Palestinians need their independence to be able to create a state.

You can’t create a state when a foreign army is in power in your country. How would you do that?

And what’s the problem with justice? Palestinians in the WB have no rights whatsoever. When the settlers aggress them, the victims are arrested. So what’s to be done to get that picture right again? Isn’t that obvious? The army must stop it’s abuses. Stop them – that’s all it takes. Treat a human as a human. Give everyone a fair trial. Punish everyone according to the same law. Right now in the WB human beings identified as Jews punished following Israeli law – if they are punished at all. In the very same place, human beings called Palestinians are punished according to Military Law. Which means in day to day reality that if a boy of 13 throws stones at the Seperation fence, he is sent to a military prison for 3 month! If a young man of 18 throws stones at PEOPLE in the presence of police and army, in front of 70 eye-witnesses, he isn’t arrested at all. I just let you guess: do you think that the 13-year old boy is Israeli? And that the 18 year old youngster is Palestinian? What do you say, Nissim. – If I speak about these particular 2 incident, it’s because I was an eyewitness to the second incident and a person I know very well was an eyewitness to the first incident. To set things straight: the 13 year old boy sent to prison for 3 month for throwing stones at the fence is Palestinian and the 18 year old is an Israeli settler. What is so unclear, so difficult here? Don’t you see what is wrong in this picture and how to set it right?

There is no need for a new path to peace. Just apply what is already decided. Just make the army act according to what it claims to be: “the most humane army in the world”.
How can it be that a person – someone VERY known in the meantime, a very serious peace activist – was sent to prison for 7 YEARS at the time when he was 17 for throwing stones at soldiers who had helmets and equipment that would not allow them to be killed? SEVEN YEARS! – And how can you justify that the 18 year old settler who threw stones at civilians without any protection and who escaped being wounded or killed only by luck IS NOT EVEN ARRESTED??

Why and for what do we need new pathways to peace?? Give the human beings called Palestinians the same rights as the human beings called Jews – or, if you want, punish the humans called Jews the same way as the humans called Palestinians… Just restore what seems to be a basic right in a democracy: equality before the law…

I really don’t understand why you are searching for “pathways to peace” – we have them already. The Israeli government doesn’t implement them – that’s all. So what you really could do to forward peace is to get the Israeli government to remove the settlements of which every single one is illegal!

“Give them justice, they will give you peace” – that’s one of the many many inscriptions on the Wall. Which part of this sentence isn’t clear?

You say that I want you to be silent about the Baha’i. I never said that.

You say that I don’t care about innocent victims. I never said that.

You say that I say that you “all suck at peace” and that Israel is the world’s most awesome democracy. I never said that.

You say that I said “sure let’s wipe them off, we’ll make it up later with a sizeable investment.” I never said that.

You say that I think that Palestinians are not human. I never said that.

You say that I am perfectly fine with crimes taking place against them. I never said that.

You say I’m treating Palestinians like worthless animals. Nonsense.

The more I read your comments the more I witness you dehumanize them while making them seem like directionless numb-skulls, all the while patting Israel in the back for being the best, the peaceful, the “just,” or whatever you’re trying to convince us here.

The more I read your comments the more I see a person who fuels her own rage not from my words but from her own imagination.

You attribute the worse to me, words which I never uttered, words which are not consistent with my posts, nor with my intentions, and you use these words, which you made up, to inflame yourself.

What am I trying to convince you here? It’s simple. I’m trying to suggest a pathway to peace, and to justice. It may work, or it may not. But it’s at least worth a voice.

You seem to admire all sorts of wonderful organizations. Wonderful. Where is the peace? Where is the justice? Are we any closer to peace? Are Palestinians any closer to justice. Or does that even matter?

My approach takes things as they are, with a minimum of emotion, because emotions run high on both sides, and I shy away from placing blame, or demanding apologies. I would take some good paying jobs over apologies any day. Inflaming passions is easy. Creating facts on the ground that bring justice and that point to the possibility of peace is not. Our emotions are what got us to this place. Isn’t it time to try something else?

If I don’t end up getting kicked off this site, I will make my next post about emotions in the Middle East. It is at the core of what is wrong in that precarious place, and I’m including Israel on that score…just to make things fair.

You can improve people’s lives, even if you don’t acknowledge wrongdoing.

I’m sorry, but I don’t believe this is at all possible. I will give you a more realistic and relevant example than yours:

If I, as a Muslim, do not acknowledge the fact that fellow Muslims are abusing and persecuting the innocent Baha’i minority, how can I improve the lives of my Baha’i brethren? By denying any wrongdoing on my part?

For the sake of my religion and its overall reputation, you suggest that I sit silently by, justifying what is happening in front of my eyes and in my name?

No. Many of us are choosing to fight back, as Muslims, because it’s our responsibility. We are committing these crimes. We owe Baha’is an apology. We apologized; then we started working on improving their human rights. This is what the decent Israelis are doing today as well towards their Palestinian brethren, because it’s their responsibility, no one else’s. It’s yours. You are expected to do it. No one else can.

I think it’s a waste of time to wait for Israel to apologize

You are wrong. She has a lot to apologize for, and we are all waiting for these apologies. Another example being that we Muslims continue to apologize publicly on behalf of all those who commit terrorism in our name. I don’t see you doing that, you must not care enough about the innocent victims dying due to the stubbornness of people like you.

Why should we insist that Israel do all the confessing? What about terror? That doesn’t count? What about all the wars of aggression against Israel? That doesn’t count?

You have not once condemned a specific attack by Israel, expressed the brutality of it, and apologize for it. You simply say, “both sides are wrong, but Arab states are significantly worse than Israel, and you all suck at peace, while we are running the world’s most awesome democracy where even minorities are protected.”

This holier-than-thou attitude gets under my skin. These ideas come from the same roots that inspire racism, the idea that your race is morally and intellectually superior. At this site, we have always apologized for all the terrorism and crimes taking place against Jews and Israelis, and if you read it often you should be the first to know that. Where are you to condemn your own crimes though? You are too busy defending Israel in one of the most retarded PR wars in history.

You could do all of that without waiting for empty gestures, like apologies, which do nothing to improve the lot of people.

You couldn’t be more wrong! There are Israelis out there risking serious abuse by building homes from scratch for the Palestinians whose horrific suffering you deny! These human rights organizations, if you even bother to ever research them, start with apologies. Apologies by Jews and Israelis who had no hand in these crimes but wish to see them stop, because unlike you they acknowledge these wrongdoing from their abusive government and unlike you they actually care enough to correct it instead of lying about it with completely false information and denying reality.

In terms of the facts, I don’t think you have a monopoly on the facts.

Every single example of yours was inaccurate and thus refuted accordingly.

I got the number wrong and I admitted it.

Come on! It’s more than the wrong number. What about the Arab Israelis whom you claimed live happily when in fact they are being denied some of their basic rights simply because of their race? What about the fact that you claimed that Israel is way better in terms of human rights than most Arab countries (also refuted)?

Speaking of Arab Israelis, they too have organizations set up to protect their human rights, have you considered giving them a hand, or lending an ear to hear their demands for support? You weren’t aware of their situation before you made these false claims, but you are now, why don’t you help them? It’s your responsibility as a citizen to protect all minorities in your country. Just like it is our responsibility to protect the rights of remaining Jews here, which a lot of us are doing visibly, including our governments which does as much as appoint them to office.

The U.S. destroyed Germany in World War II, and then invested in The Marshall Plan, which improved the lives of millions of Germans.

So basically, you’re suggesting “sure let’s whipe them off, we’ll make it up later with a sizeable investment.” Seems to me that you have no consideration towards Palestinian human rights and like David, don’t even consider them to be human, since you are perfectly fine with crimes taking place against their very existence. Palestine is more than just a blurry spot on a map. There are people there. Seriously. Some of them are even children, and they deserve to live, too, with dignity!

Stop treating them like worthless animals. The more I read your comments the more I witness you dehumanize them while making them seem like directionless numb-skulls, all the while patting Israel in the back for being the best, the peaceful, the “just,” or whatever you’re trying to convince us here.

You can’t improve anyone’s life unless you acknowledge the fact that the government you love to brag about so much has messed these lives up BIG TIME in the first place!

I think you’re wrong about this, Esra’a. You can improve people’s lives, even if you don’t acknowledge wrongdoing.

The U.S. destroyed Germany in World War II, and then invested in The Marshall Plan, which improved the lives of millions of Germans. Did the U.S. acknowledge any wrongdoing? No. The U.S. just took it upon itself to invest as she saw fit. Confession of wrongdoing was not part of the plan, and would have made no sense.

I said many times, but you refuse to listen, that both sides have done wrong. Why should we insist that Israel do all the confessing? What about terror? That doesn’t count? What about all the wars of aggression against Israel? That doesn’t count?

I think it’s a waste of time to wait for Israel to apologize, because she will not do that if it’s a one-sided deal. But it’s certainly not a waste of time to do what the U.S. did, and to invest in Palestine, to create jobs, to give people hope, to neutralize the hold of extremists thinking. You could do all of that without waiting for empty gestures, like apologies, which do nothing to improve the lot of people.

In terms of the facts, I don’t think you have a monopoly on the facts. I got the number wrong and I admitted it. But I believe in what I said, and what I said does not fall or stand based on the number. Within Israel proper, human rights are respected to a much greater extent than many other countries, and that includes Israeli Arabs. The West Bank is a problem, but I believe in solving that problem, in ways that are realistic, and not dependent on empty gestures like confessions or apologies.