What do Iraqi Kurds’ think of Turkey?
September 7th, 2008Today I read a text of Abdulhamit Bilici which is “What do Iraqi Kurds’ think of Turkey?” and he was telling his own experiences about Iraq. While I read it I realized that Iraq is changing in a good way after the Iraq war, Bilici has two interviews with Arbil Governor Nevzad Had Mevlud and Rebwar Karim Wali, who was for a long time the only Kurdish journalist, Nevzad had Mevlud said that “The Turkish media is always presenting us as the people who support the PKK and who plan to divide Iraq. This is not correct.” I agree with Mr. Mevlud PKK is really different thing it doesn’t mean that all the Kurdish people are members of the PKK or all the PKK warriors are Kurdish.
In Turkey a lot of people still think that all Kurdish people are members of PKK or supporting the PKK and I don’t believe this. I am not going to describe you PKK if you type in the Google “What is PKK” you will get many definition about it. I believe that PKK is an organization which is supported by some other countries which want to divide Turkey and their plans work, there is a huge fighting between Turkish and Kurdish in everywhere where they live together..
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Rebwar Karim Wali want to to say what u wanted to hear..but Turkey still considered as a monster state by most Kurds. especially after seeing Turkish agression against Kurdish civilian during decenmber 07 during the Turkey’s invasion in the name of fighting PKK.
Turkeys human rights record speaks for itself. When you deny a peoples identity and basic human right, you will face resistance for this god given gift. The Turkish state didnt allow Kurdish people these basic rights so we form organizations to resist you. Kurdistan will continue to struggle until its freedom. Go to google and type in “Turkish human rights record” and you will understand how repressive and evil the turkish government and its manipulated tools are.
I will have to agree with Sheikh Said. We cannot expect an entire nation to sit back and watch their human rights get increasingly abused, it is normal to resist. So if Turkey is threatened by any form of Kurdish resistance, they should consider guaranteeing Kurdish human rights, instead of aggressively persecuting against them thinking that the Kurds will accept this. How does the Turkish government explain what they did to Kurds in Newroz, including to women and children, just because they were peacefully celebrating?
Thanks for bringing up this important topic Yusuf.
Wow, for such an evil country, Turkey sure does have a huge and thriving Kurdish population. I’d been interested to know if there is any other nation on earth where Kurds have been so comfortably breeding their freedom fighters? Poor Kurds. Conquered by every nation under the sun for thousands of years, decide to get all brave using blood money from desperate weaklings like greece. Come to Australia and see what the kurds are like here. Everyday is Newroz for them - sining, dancing, drinking - deluded, failed marriages, bankrupcies. Their children are all uneducated and are more worried about getting married at 17 rather finishing school. The parents dont work and leech off the government. They are a sad bunch. But ofcourse, dont blame them - its all Turkey’s fault. I know this to be true in Germany too. The kurds in Iraq know they are guilty of hurting Turkey. So when turkey bites back dont cry human rights! I dont believe that all Kurds are bad. My mothers side all live in Elazig - I never heard them say anything bad regarding Turkish treatment. I asuume they have nothing to hide. I have family friends form Adiyaman and Urfa - They visit their homelands regularly and also are the first ones at any anti-turkish rallies. I dont get it? They tell me their cities are beautiful. Identity is the problem. But once Turkey gives the kurds a hand, they will want Turkey’s arm. I dont see Kurds as being reasonable. They are very easily manipulated! My grandmother speaks kurdish everyday. There has never been a jandarma at her door. Again, Kurds speak half the truth. They are equally guilty as the Turkish army (not gov.).
It doesn’t matter for Turkey if Kurds in Iraq are PKK or something else. Problem is that they are Kurds and that they want to assert their independence. Turkey doesn’t want that to happen. As confirmed by the thoughts of Ilker Basbug that Kerkuk is orignally a Turkomen town, while they did nothing to stop Saddam Hussein from murdering Turkomen and deporting them.
This petty generalization strikes me as racist.
And then this confirms my initial assumption of your racism, or at the very least, sheer hatred and disgust with this nation.
Most likely, because if Kurds spoke the entire truth, Turkey would kill them for it. And oh merciless angel of tears, no one wants to irk the Turkish government (not just army) where even children can face imprisonment merely for speaking their language or practicing their culture, which continues to be stifled.
That’s very cute, maybe she can try speaking it outside of her house, like in an educational atmosphere, and see where that gets her.
Oh, being denied your basic right to your language and culture is not abusive at all! Being fined for speaking Kurdish is absolutely normal. Watching women and children being beaten up in the streets for celebrating a cultural event is really no big deal. Suspending a local TV station for broadcasting Kurdish love songs is fair game in Turkey, so is mass arrests of Kurdish journalists. Wow, what an exciting revelation. Thanks for this!
i read all your comments in a patient you all are blaming Turkey because of Kurds,
you know what it is not about kurds it is aboout PKK you dont know this, because your children didnt murdered by PKK or you cant feel those mothers pain(whose children murdered by PKK). if you take a tour of east Turkey you will have much idea about differences between PKK and Kurdish people…
Why was the PKK formed? As previously stated it was inspired after decades of abuse. I’m not agreeing with their tactics, I think resorting to violence is wrong on all accounts, but you can’t claim that Turkey is abusing Kurdish human rights merely because of the PKK, it’s factually and historically inaccurate. In one of the articles I posted above, it notes that Kurds were being denied their cultural (and to an extent, civil) rights since at least 1931. PKK didn’t exist at the time, it was formed over 40 years later, as a direct response to the atrocities that the Turkish government has committed towards its Kurdish population. Therefore Turkey is not using aggression in self-defense again the PKK, like their active propaganda wants people to believe, they are using aggression in an effort to make sure that the Kurdish identity is entirely destroyed.
To those who claim the government is persecuting the Kurds. I should remind You, a huge majority of Kurds in Turkey, including the majority of every province in Kurdish region, except one, voted for the current government party. So called “Kurdish Party” got only minority of the Kurdish votes. You may say stuff alongside with your political views, however numbers don’t lie.
Irrelevant. They voted knowing fully well that they would be severely discriminated against? This is an absurd claim.
Don’t tell me that Kurds are happy with their deplorable situation in Turkey. If you think that numbers don’t lie, then you should realize that the number of cases emerging every other day concerning persecution against Kurdish civilians within the country proves it.
It’s appalling how people are claiming that believing in Kurdish human rights is in alliance with a political bias. What politics? Any minority that is being abused deserves respect and human rights, which the Turkish government doesn’t offer. And then they wonder why they’re not a part of the EU? What a joke. The extent that the Turkish government would go to cover up for its racist and vicious crimes is simply astounding.
Read full article here.
Full article.
Full article.
I can go on, but I’m sure all of these incidents are taking place for no reason, because the Kurdish situation is perfectly normal and all Kurds are living happily in Turkey, like people in this thread are assuming. Turkey is entirely innocent, I’m sure.
For the past generation Turkey has been busily persecuting its Kurdish minority. Perhaps that is why Turkey has had at least two Presidents of Kurdish extraction, and at least a fourth of all Turkish parliamentarians are of Kurdish origins. Perhaps that is why Turkey’s biggest city Istanbul is also the biggest Kurdish city in the world, with millions of ethnic Kurds participating in every facet of Turkish life from politics to showbiz, business to the arts, retail trade to the military.
The fact is, Kurds are omnipresent in Turkey are are active in ALL spheres of Turkish public life. Can the same be said about the long persecuted Gypsies in Eastern and Central Europe, or the Arabs of France who are routinely discriminated and excluded from most sections of French society ? When Kurdish extremists attack the Turkish military and bomb Turkish cities and resorts, most Turks will tell you they have no problems with Kurds, only with the PKK. And yet in Europe, or the US anytime a Muslim immigrant is arrested for terrorist links, all screams of the “Islamization” of Europe break loose with scant regard for the innocent or the guilty.
Could it be the terrible Turks have a somewhat more mature attitude to the Kurds than many of their enlightened European neighbours ?
Nice try SAS. But I doubt anyone would buy your comment unless they approve of what Kurds have to give up in order to actually lead a normal life in Turkey: Their complete identity!
I’m sure Leyla Zana will agree with what you’re saying, considering what she had to suffer through, for speaking Kurdish in a parliament’s inaugural session.
And of course the mayor in Turkey who was dismissed for speaking Kurdish will applaud your comment equally.
Here’s an example of just how normally Kurds live in Turkey, that is of course, if they don’t have to sell their culture, values, traditions, ethnic history and language just to blend in and participate in Turkey’s public life:
Full article.
Of course when they reconsider their unreasonable ban on Kurdish music, language, culture, et al, it’s not because the Turkish government actually cares about Kurdish human rights, it’s because they want to snuggle up with the EU.
6 years later the Turkish government proves that it has yet to tolerate its Kurdish minority:
Full article.
And children? Don’t dare sing in your native Kurdish language! Or you will be charged.
You will have to do better than that Esra.
Kurds are NOT required to give up their identity to be accepted in Turkey - as the article you yourself provided mentioned, Kurdish is no longer banned, and even if it was banned I fail to see how that would excuse the militants from the PKK exploding bombs in Turkish cities and murdering Turkish soldiers.
“Popular Kurdish singer Nilufer Akbal pleaded for an end to prejudices against her language, which linger even though singing in Kurdish has been allowed in Turkey since the early 1990s.”
So a Kurdish woman become a popular singer in Turkey, proving my point more than it does yours. Prejudices against Kurdish language ? Well if prejudice against Kurds is more widespread than prejudice against Arabs in France, Gypsies in Eastern Europe, I would be deeply surprised - anyway their language is no longer banned so I fail to see why she has to be so upset.
Turkey banning Nowruz / Well try this - the Turks have allowed Nowruz celebrations for years, except they tend to get violent and Kurdish extremists hijack what is supposed to be a peaceful celebration into a rowdy and violent brawl, vandalizing property and attacking police. Poor Turks - they might actually have allowed the open celebration of Nowruz if the PKK and its supporters did not behave so badly.
http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/archives.php?id=27463
Celebrate Nevruz peacefully and there should be no problem. Use it as an excuse to start rioting and no good will come. It is the same as in the West with Muslims - celebrate Eidulfitr peacefully and there should be no problem. Start rioting and waving picture of Bin Laden and do not expect your host society to be too pleased about it.
let me tell you something,
there is a extremely huge-hidden organization behind all this, there wasnt distinction before ottoman empire, everything has started with down of ottoman empire and came up to these days, today AKP is trying to change it, and apparently they are rebuilding rationale of ottoman empire.
Whatever, if there is a problem of corruption in Turkey it affects people of all ethnicities.
On paper, not in reality! Most of the cases I mentioned contradict what you are saying considering how recent they are, some just a month old. None of them so far have been refuted, or at the very least apologized for. Typical. Kurds are used to this. After all, it’s been going on for more than 80 years.
You’re making a dire mistake here, and doing exactly what the author of this post advised us against: Since when does Kurdish human rights equal support for the PKK? Like I said, they have been denied such rights as early as 1931, the PKK was formed only in 1978. Maybe you should read this post and familiarize yourself with this concept before making dangerous conclusions.
Kurdish is not banned, either in theory or in practice. The Kurdish community even has a govt run TV station broadcasting in their language. Then again, if the Kurdish broadcasters decide to incite hatred or violence the Turkish authorities are within their rights to censor or even prosecute them.
Take a look at this link if you feel this is a Turkish phenomenon alone -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MED_TV
http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/business/news/article_1413077.php/Germany_bans_Kurdish_satellite_broadcaster_Roj_TV
I did not insinuate support for Kurdish rights equals support for the PKK. Please note, however that even as Turkey expands Kurdish rights, the Turks continue to be targetted by the PKK’s relentless attacks -
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L7550437.htm
So the PKK continues to attack Turkey even when Kurdish rights are being expanded. Hardly the kind of behaviour one would expect from freedom fighters. One wonders how human rights can be expanded through terrorism.
If Turkey has to take tough measures to defend itself from terrorists, the terrorists themselves must take the ultimate blame.
Again I provided examples that refute this.
Full article. Kurdish songs isn’t exactly a form of terrorism, this is just what the Turkish propaganda wants people to believe. What’s so threatening about love songs and choirs?
Another choir example was from this summer, proving that the situation is ongoing. Indeed, using the outstanding logic of the Turkish government, a children’s choir is such a vicious form of terrorism, where language is the sole weapon.
If you use this logic then you have to equally apply it to the minority that Turkey is so much against: If Kurds have to take tough measures to defend themselves from persecution, the Turkish government must take the ultimate blame.
A commenter makes this clearer in the same post that I linked you to:
I can provide evidence to the contrary -
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9805E2DA1739F932A15752C1A9649C8B63
http://www.focus-fen.net/index.php?id=n148958
http://www.londragazete.com/haber_detay.asp?haberID=1738
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2007/10/mil-071028-rferl01.htm
http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSL1226927120080312
So the Turks allow millions of law abiding Kurds to participate in their society, remove laws against Kurdish language and culture, invest billions of dollars to develop the Southeast of their country which is predominantly Kurdish, and even try to start Kurdish language TV stations, and what do they end up with aside from the cheap hate propaganda of terror websites like Kurdmedia.com - terror and more terror.
Let me talk to you Esra’a in a language you can understand - when Bahrain starts treating its Shiites like equals, and when the numbers of Shias in the Bahraini legislature starts matching the numbers of Kurds in Turkey’s parliament, then we can start talking about minority rights. As of now, the only reason people do not talk about your own country’s treatment of its Shias is because, to their credit none of them engage in terror activities the way some Kurds do.
“The PKK is a result of the injustices inflicted by the Turkish government on the Kurdish people, not a cause. If Turkey had respected Kurdish political, social, economical and and all other human rights from the beginning and respected Kurds as equals in Turkey, the PKK would have never come into existence. Neither would have the other rebel parties in the other parts of Kurdistan.”
Wrong wrong wrong. The Kurdish people have been participating in Turkish life from day one, even the first Prime Minister of Turkey ( Ismet Inonu ) was a Kurd. The PKK does things like smuggle heroin on the streets of Europe, vandalize Turkish embassy, massacre entire villages in Turkey’s Southeast, murder and maim Kurds who are loyal to Turkey, blow up bombs in Turkish cities, send their homicide bombers against Turkish pedestrians, soldier and shoppers. You cannot justify such barbarism because of a few silly Turkish laws that have for the most part been abolished. NO EXCUSE FOR TERRORISM.
Turkey has expanded Kurdish rights in recent years and law abiding Kurds have always been welcome to participate in Turkish life, the PKK continues to murder and maim, making it abundantly clear it has NO RESPECT for human life or for basic political freedoms. Turkey has a right to defend itself from terrorism, just as it has a right to defend itself from these ridiculous accusations of “persecution” of Kurds.
Sounds like an excuse for terrorism to me. You should understand there is a difference between a terrorist organization murdering and maiming for no reason other than psychopathic tendencies and a democratically elected government tryint to protect its people.
this is what i realy want to mention.
Yusuf, if you are Turkish, I think you ought to be more aggressive and proactive in combatting the hate and misinformation frequently aimed at Turkey. Contrary to popular myth, Turkey does NOT persecute Kurds and allows them the chance to participate in all sections of Turkish society. Despite this, the PKK continues to murder and attack Turkey, even though the Turks have offered them repeated amnesties in spite of their past crimes.
Turks should defend themselves more robustly, not just with guns and shields, but with an effective media campaign to legitimize their side of the story and show the truth like it is.
SAS, none of that is evidence. It’s again what is in theory, what is in paper, done more recently to please the EU, not what’s actually in practice behind Turkey’s closed curtains.
Diverting attention is an interesting tactic.
You did not once mention anything on any of the reports I provided, which are actual cases being condemned by the international community as a whole, which practically means that you approve of it, on the premise of “terrorism.” Ah, we live in such exciting times, where love songs, speaking one’s language in a pariliamentary session, and children’s choir are forms of terrorism. Brilliant. I cannot wait to read more of how tolerant Turkey is.
Oh don’t worry, aggressive Turkish nationalism is doing its part quite well. Maybe you should read this article so that you can be less confused on the difference between KURDS and the PKK which are NOT synonymous, contrary to what you are getting at.
Full article.
Shock and awe! The Turkish government should hide this immediately, or some people might actually wise up and have sympathy for this abused minority!
I will tell you what is happening in practice - Turkey’s biggest city is also the biggest Kurdish city in the world. The Turks have elected parliamentarians, a fourth of whom are ethnic Kurds. The Kurds are some of Turkey’s best known artists, businesspeople, politicians, journalists and religious leaders. Kurdish immigrants stream into Turkish cities looking for employment, only to move up the ladder of Turkish society.
Contrast that to much of Europe, where anti immigrant hysteria is rampant, ethnic minorities suffer prejudice, intolerance, social exclusion, and even violence and where politicians build up their careers by vilifying minorities and immigrants. The sordid fate of European Jewry and Gypsies is a matter of public record.
So the Turks allow the lawabiding Kurds to participate and contribute to their society even as their sons are being murdered by the PKK because they know and understand the difference between the PKK and the Kurdish people as a whole. Yes, that does make them tolerant by the standards of the West where people have no problem with accusing immigrants of spreading crime and Muslims of being ( ahem ) terrorists.
By the way, if you want I can always post articles about Bahrain’s treatment of its Shiites - who incidentally have NEVER to the best of my knowledge used terrorism in their history. The we will see who uses diversion.
Exactly my point - the Kurds who respect the law instead of blowing themselves up the loser down below do not usually face problems.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2008-08-19-Turkey-bombs_N.htm
If your definition of “aggressive Turkish nationalism” is arresting and punishing terrorists and defending one’s country from slander, I have no problem with it at all. I did not say the PKK and the Kurds were synonymous. I advise you to read my posts a little more thoroughly.
http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=85280
I read your article. So a Turk wrote an article criticizing his government’s policies and got away with it too. Sounds like tolerance to me. That is the essence of freedom. Would a writer who criticized Bahrain’s treatment of its minorities survive for two days.
Astounding ignorance is evidenced yet again. The rulers here are the “minority.” What books are you reading?
This guy is an active human rights activist and barely gets away with anything, don’t you know your own authors?
Full article.
THAT is Turkish tolerance? Fantastic.
I consider this thread to be done with; if you want to spread nationalist propaganda go ahead, but the comedy in your posts is wearing thin. You can of course feel free to continue replying, but I’m bored already, and will write only once I find an actual challenge.
I wonder if it ever occurred to you the reason the problems in Bahrain pale in comparison to those of Turkey is because the Shias do not go about blowing themselves up across the island and vandalizing embassies, or using terrorism.
Am I missing something ? This fellow criticizes his own government and gets threatened by some loose idiots. He
He continues to write for the papers and is a respected intellectual, even if some irresponsible sections of society threaten him for his work. Please attack each other’s integrity for their view ALL THE TIME. The government does not seem to be making any problems for him from what you are telling me.
Here is Turkish tolerance -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elvan_Abeylegesse
A Turkish champion of African descent.
Contrasted to Bahraini….well…..you tell me……
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6238217.stm
Are Kurdish human rights so insecure they can be expended by me expressing my views ?
I am very tempted to insert my comments in this thread but fear the neverending ramblings by SAS and his patriotic competition. A post about Kurds and Turkey ended up with a link to a BBC article on Bahrain and an athlete who is Kenyan by nationality and was in the country for less than 3 years before he gained and lost a passport to represent the country in sports events, he did not lose his life or culture. Comparing this to the Kurdish issue in Turkey is LOL and very WTF, excuse my French.
[...] is being harassed by both prison guards and other inmates, and is in poor physical condition, says Free Kareem, a website set up for the jailed blogger, who is serving a four year prison sentence for articles [...]
OK, let me start off by thanking Mideastyouth for publishing my comments after a delay.
Firstly, the human rights advocate in Turkey is a respected intellectual, who writes for the papers and is trusted by society is NOT being punished for his views. He is only being threatened by some ultranationalistic jerks who cannot respect his right to express divergent views who in any case do not represent Turkish society, the Turkish government and the Turkish ethos.
Second, I posted the example of a stalward Turkish athlete of Ethiopian ( and hence I assume Christian descent ) who is a national heroine in Turkey after going there as an immigrant and bringing glory to her adopted country. From this account it becomes abundantly clear Turkey is a VERY tolerant and accepting society for the most part although I see no reason why that tolerance should extend to terrorists. For the record there are tens of thousands of Turks of African heritage, who, despite their tendency to maintain there more or less distinct identity, are VERY well integrated into Turkish society and face little prejudice. Turkish society has a long tradition of welcoming immigrants from the Balkans and the Middle East, millions of Arabs, Greeks, Bulgarians went to Turkey after the First World War and were fully assimilated.
The problem with the Bahraini athlete of African heritage being stripped of his nationality is a sad one, but let me point out that the Turkish team at the Olympics also includes Turks of Bulgarian, African, and yes, even Kurdish heritage…..so much for persecution.
While we are on the subject of Bahrain, let me say before this conversation I had NEVER had a conversation with a Bahraini online or otherwise. Esraa is the first Bahraini I have ever talked with and I am shocked to learn she is a lady and 21. It shocks me profoundly that a young Bahraini woman can be so full of hatred towards a nation like Turkey which has ALWAYS had good relations with Bahrain and the other GCC countries. The GCC countries send billions of dollars of investment to Turkey and Turkey is a favourite holiday destination among Arab tourists, and the idea that a person from Bahrain should have so much anger against a friendly nation beggars belief. If she had been Greek or Armenian, I would have still been able to predict her hostility, but the stuff she writes about Turkey is so full of hate that I cannot make sense of it.
Anyway her writing about Turkey’s so called persecution of the Kurds is just totally distorted…..
SAS,
At Mideast Youth we frequently report on the persecution of religious minorities in Iran, on Saudi Arabia’s gross mistreatment of women, on Egypt’s crackdown on the freedom of speech and so on, yet that does not mean we harbour hatred towards these countries or attempt to incite hatred.
We don’t base our criticism on whether or not our countries enjoy good relations with each other or not, but what we feel are genuine concerns for the human rights of others within the region.
As you have stated, changes that allowed Kurds in Turkey have only been recently introduced. How can that wipe out memories of decades of imprisonment, destroyed villages and deaths?
No one in here excuses terrorism, and our countries too have suffered losses due to terrorism. But it cannot simply be dismissed as random acts of aggression; its root causes need to be addressed.
Being against the persecution of Kurds is now called hatred against Turkey? Funny. And Inonu isn’t a Kurd. He was a Turkish nationalist and conservative. There are a lot of assimilated Kurds in the past, like Ziya Gokalp, a profound ultranationalist and extremist. Or members of the Grey Wolves.
I don’t give a shit about the drugs dealers of the PKK Esra, but you cannot expect to discuss something with these rightwing Turks living their comfortable lives in the west while praising Turkey and denying human right reports as slander and a sign of western imperialism (Ottoman empire wasn’t an empire? I thought Turks were proud of their imperialist past?). It looks like those crazy nationalists diaspora Kurds, who are just as racist as a lot of these Turks.
I can already predict Esra’a that u will get harassed by the Turkish police or intelligence service if you continue to write about Kurdish rights in the English language. Did you know Turkey tried to blackmail Amnesty International? Did you know Jonathan Sugden of Human Rights Watch was kicked out of Turkey, because he wrote about Kurdish human rights? (He also wrote against the PKK, by the way).
Did you know, that according to the Ergenekon investigation, the TURKISH ARMY ITSELF sold 150.000 weapons to the PKK and is involved in drugs, human trafficking like the PKK!!! Did you know that MHP (Grey Wolves) worked together with PKK in Europe only for making money out of drugs?
And about Orhan Kemal Cengiz. I know him through the internet. The ultranationalists who killed those christians were ignored by the Turkish police. The police has a hand in this.
http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=7576&mailtofriend=1
Also the military killed some Kurdish villagers and this is the top of the iceberg. And what happens: The military says iTS PKK PROPAGANDA.
Sometimes it looks like PKK is created by the Turkish military itself, to uphold an excuse for their huge military budget and power in the Kurdish southeast!
He is also being denied state protection, and requests for help and security is consistently dismissed.
Has he been prosecuted by the authorities for his writings ? So far you have not shown me any evidence in this regard.
The Turkish military created the terrorists who murder their own rank and file ? You do not expect me to believe that, not for a moment.
Making distorted allegations is a sign of hatred. Another sign of the “persecution” nonsense - look at this article - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%B0smet_%C4%B0n%C3%B6n%C3%BC - Note - He was born in İzmir to a family originally from Malatya with mixed Turkish-Kurdish heritage
So the Turks persecute the Kurds by allowing a Kurd to become their first Prime Minister ! Ha !
I’m migrating SAS’s comments from here to this thread, so that he doesn’t hijack yet another post with his exact same words as he has circulated here. His new comments will be appearing below.
SAS is crying censorship now, not having realized his migrated comments. I guess it’s against human rights for a site to have some simple guidelines standards. Read them. Follow them. Understand the difference between cleaning up the site and “censorship.”
I have no idea how I was able to stomach this trash for an entire thread and a half.
I am growing kind of fond of you, Esra’a.
I went through your list of rules and I thought they made good sense. I do not believe I violated any of them, I think if anything you were the one who kept calling me ignorant and accusing me of being “delusional”. Not very nice, you know.
If I want to cry censorship, is that covered by free speech ? The answer is yes !
There are still plenty of my comments that have not yet been posted. Still busy at the censorship desk, Esra’a
BTW do you always refer to opinions you do not agree with as “trash” ? With that kind of attitude I am unsure if you can talk about tolerance.
“The Turkish military created the terrorists who murder their own rank and file ? You do not expect me to believe that, not for a moment.”
Don’t believe the hype. Ergenekon/Susurluk/Semdinli shows the army doesn’t give care about anything. Like this: http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=114604
http://www.bugun.com.tr/haber_detay.asp?haberID=37615
http://cryptome.org/turkey-tale.htm
Documents seized in a police raid on the house of an executive of a TV station as part of the ongoing Ergenekon operation have revealed that a secret and illicit military intelligence unit known as JİTEM was engaged in several illegal acts, including drug and human smuggling and arms trade with the outlawed Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK).
http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=151249
“Making distorted allegations is a sign of hatred. Another sign of the “persecution” nonsense - look at this article - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%B0smet_%C4%B0n%C3%B6n%C3%BC - Note - He was born in İzmir to a family originally from Malatya with mixed Turkish-Kurdish heritage
So the Turks persecute the Kurds by allowing a Kurd to become their first Prime Minister ! Ha ”
Inonu didn’t see himself as a KURD, but as a NATIONALIST TURK.
Fethi Okyar was deposed and replaced with the grim Ismet Inönü. By way of defining his position on the Kurds, Inönü publicly stated, “We are openly nationalist. Nationalism is the only cause that keeps us together. Besides the Turkish majority, none of the other [ethnic] elements shall have any impact. We shall, at any price, turkicize those who live in our country, and destroy those who rise up against the Turks and Turkdom.
http://www.let.uu.nl/~Martin.vanBruinessen/personal/publications/Dersim_rebellion.pdf.
You forgot that Kurdish identity was forbidden after 1925 and that Turkish nationalism is inclusive. So no, there was no tolerance for Kurds. Another former Kurdish MP who signed Lausanne, got hanged/killed afterwards.
SAS,
It is common for comments to be mistakenly marked as spam, which is what happened in your case. Moderators check the list regularly and ensure all legitimate comments are de-spammed. Be patient; we do not censor views unless it is warranted.
I beseech everyone to remain respectful and shy away from personal and derogatory attacks. Accept that there will be others who view events differently, and respect their right to hold different opinions.
This thread is a wonderful opportunity to engage in dialogue and understand each other. However, if the level of discussion deteriorates, we’ll be forced to close the thread.
Thank You Kawthar,
As I mentioned I am not Turkish but I will defend Turkey if I feel it has been made the target of hateful accusations which do not reflect the realities of today.
Anyway, I do not recall attacking anyone, only stating facts.
SAS, the denial and paranoia that you spread at the expense of the fundamental rights of individuals is not an opinion. It is hate directed at the individuals and at society. Your attributing of every violation of human rights committed at the hands of the Turkish regime as a reaction to the rebellion is a precise echo of the propaganda the regime has successfully and sadly spread among proxies like yourself.
Considering the type of denial that you are attempting to spread, while Esra’a responds to you with documented proof, I am surprised all your baseless comments were not deleted.
SAS, have you ever heard of Newton’s Third Law of Motion? If you had some creativity, you could apply it to what happens in Turkey and perhaps help fix the problems in Turkey rather than trying to justify the problems. To every action there is always opposed an equal reaction. Hardly anywhere in the world are there rebellious actions that were not the result of punitive and unjust state actions against the very people rebelling.
I think your comments summed it up when you said Turkey banned Newroz when “they [the Kurds] tend to get violent and Kurdish extremists hijack what is supposed to be a peaceful celebration into a rowdy and violent brawl, vandalizing property and attacking police”. There was no violence initiated until the celebrations last Newroz were greeted with the Turkish regime’s supervised beatings of women and children and those killed and allowed the perpetrators of these crimes to walk free.
Kurdish extremists ROUTINELY abuse Nevruz celebrations as an excuse for going on an orgy of violence and vandalism, trashing public property, attacking cars and making a nuisance of themselves. Look at the following examples if you do not believe me -
http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=137089
Do you really expect the Turkish police to sit back and do nothing while the demonstrators use violence and create havoc ?
Another example of Turkish intolerance -
http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=152525
It’s funny that you link to that story, considering the fact that the 2 dead are Kurdish civilians, as are 90% of those severely wounded. What tragedy for Turkish police! Your beloved heroes actually had to lift an arm and shoot at the crowds.
You use the word “routinely,” in caps and bold even (because that makes it more convincing) when essentially you are linking to a single incident where Kurds are still victims of police abuse. Maybe you should read this article, and try to admit the faults of your Turkish friends:
Oh, those 15 year old boys, those elderly women and children, such extremists!
There is plenty of coverage on how Turkish police abused innocent Kurds, not all of whom support the PKK as I have consistently stated throughout this thread and with associated articles. Now it’s your turn to prove how Kurds are violent during Newroz. Make your argument slightly more compelling by actually using footage this time.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0829/p10s01-woeu.html
http://www.voanews.com/english/2008-08-11-voa11.cfm
http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=150630&bolum=101
http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=150630&bolum=101
Sorry, I do not have access to footage but these links make it abundantly clear the PKK is continuing to attack the Turks. They have a right to defend themselves.
Morality in the Turkish government:
Full article.
You have made the claim several times that Kurdish as a language is perfectly acceptable in Turkey, another incorrect and ill-informed assumption. You should be aware of the following:
And don’t ask why the PKK do what they do; as inexcusable as it is, prosectuion always results in violence. If you want to stop the violence, stop the prosecution! Until when do you expect Kurds to suffer from this intolerable humiliation?
Full article.
OK, let me get this straight. A few criminal elements within the Turkish establishment co-operate with the terrorists and are now being prosecuted to the full extent of the law. How can the Turkish authorities be accused of creating the PKK when they do not even spare their own for co-operating with it.
Anyway, if the PKK is such a good organization in your view, how can you condemn the Turkish military for doing business with it ? Ha !
The dead and wounding were
- try going on a rampage in some European city and see if they treat you with velvet gloves !
I don’t know why you bothered to quote my sentence when you didn’t bother enough to actually search for the relevant response. I didn’t ask about the PKK. I asked about Newroz. I will quote myself again and request the same information which you have not provided:
He was a Kurd who saw himself as a Turk and did very well. Kind of proves my point.
Can you please quote anyone within this thread who is pro-PKK. Show me a single comment that even remotely suggests that the PKK is a “good organization.”
With pleasure -
https://www.osac.gov/Reports/report.cfm?contentID=65009
Note -
The Nevruz holiday falls on March 21 this year and it is often accompanied by PKK-related protests, which have the potential to turn violent. Some Nevruz observations may take place the preceding weekend.
That’s still a claim, please respond with actual incidents.
And it has already been well established by now that they turn violent directly because of Turkish police who fire at Kurds. Didn’t you read the comments above? Your article isn’t proof, if anything it just contradicts what you’re saying.
What you should know is the source is globalpolitician - a vehemently anti Muslim site that routinely publishes articles defaming and slandering Muslims and vilifying the Islamic religion.
What you should also remember is around 2-2.5 million Turks perished in the First World War, many massacred by Armenian forces. It was a horrendous time for ALL people in the area.
Seriously? This is the best that you can do?
The source you provided is directly affiliated with the U.S government, whom I’m sure don’t have their interests at stake for publishing these stories (note the sarcasm.) So what’s your point? It’s the information that’s valuable here, forget the interpretation of the facts. You should also realize that the quote I provided is actually recycled from other sources. Disprove what it says, if you can. Throughout the entire thread you actually didn’t disprove anything and frankly all of this has been a waste of time. I’ll give you one more chance to actually prove your arguments to be worthwile, instead of consistent denials and justification of Turkish abuse.
Let me guess; so the next thing you will do is deny the Armenian genocide as well. Did you know that in several countries that is considered a crime?
Please read Goran’s comment again.
As Goran also implied your comments are nothing but nauseating, and you have done nothing but put words in people’s mouths and assume that they support the PKK when every single person who clearly disagreed with you also visibly condemned the PKK for their actions, I even linked an entire thread that revolved around that. You have also not proven any of your accusations of us being supporters of terrorism, merely for believing in basic Kurdish human rights, a typically obvious tactic of Turkish propoganda. The most recent comment of yours, which will not appear for the same reasons as Kawthar already described, is you yet again resorting to pitiful personal attacks that are not uncommon for abusive people of your ilk.
Goodbye SAS. You have been given many chances already to be respectful and understanding in your arguments, but the moderated comments have already shown your true and bigoted personality which is completely incompatible with this site’s guidelines. Thanks for sharing your opinion within thread, all of which did appear, but no thanks for your abusive and childish behavior, none of which will appear as they entirely break the rules of this platform. No one here has time for your reckless attitude. Come back when you’re an adult.
for long time turkish government abusing Kurd, so kurds have been discriminated by turkish people and the government, as even before 1992 simple think as speaking kurdish language was a crime by turkish law, more than 2000 villages were destroyed by turkish army because of military operation in the kurdish region, many as 1000s kurdish people were killed,executed,been prison for long term, including children and women as well as older even disabilitys,
also 1000s people had for flee or scape from their own home land because they been force by turkish government or some of them their life became danger because of some basic human or civilian activity.
the result of occupation by turkish dictator government many kurdish people last their life, their home, their jobs, house etc,
today turkey kissing EU s ass to let them to join the EU while the entire country has smell of murder ,dictatorship,corruption, discrimination, unjustice law, human right abuses, torturing, finally democracy not exist in the country specially towards kurdish nation,
Until yesterday turkey was kissing USA ass until USA realized of turkey s 2 faces,
now lets talk about PKK we are not forgot that in the establishment of PKK many turkish people were involved with it in the leadership of pkk, so turks and kurds side by side of each other brought pkk,
it was no choice for kurds left,so making an reble army was the last option, as kurds many times put an peaceful agenda on the turkih government table, but they gtot answer by shooting them on the head, yes if you are talking about peace in turkey you get shoot, or get prison or some how you get punish as you are guilty.
some people are here that some children were killed in this war, but do you know how many kurdish children were killed,and do you know kurdish children still don’t have school to study,with no support,with out job, house, parents,etc all because of tyrant turkish government towards kurds,
i personally been in pkk s comp in northen iraq as a european student, and they are must educated people in entire turkey, they are freedom fighters.
turkey need a lot of change,and they need to improve a real democracy which not exist in turkey at the moment, to finally join the EU as they are dreaming about it,
All idiotic nationalistic crap as to this point.
Despite the 30 year of fighting with the terrorists, it did not turned into a civil war between the Kurds and the Turks. Think about Iraq after Saddam where all the ethnic and religious groups are mass murdering each other.
The social facts are as follows:
1) Being from another race doesn’t make people crazy here because there are more than 30 ethnicities in Turkey
2) The main problem is not the pressure on the Kurds. Actually Turkey is evolving for the last 200 years. Speaking the 20th century it was not just the Kurds who were under pressure. It was the times of cold war and the times of state nationalism which created a system putting the state at the centre not the individual. That is also the main reason why the majority of the Turkish population (including the Kurds) want to join the EU. Because the society evolves at an incredible speed and want more individual liberties. Speaking Kurdish is also one of them.
What is true that the bureocrasy is following from quite behind and still putting the state in front of the individuals.
3) 100 years ago almost % 90 percent of the population was living in the villages, Today this percentage is only % 35. At it is rapidly declining. This creates an extreme pressure on the society beginning with the Kurds, who
were mainly living in small villages.
4) In Turkey there are almost 3 million interracial marriages between the Kurds and all other ethnic groups mainly Turks.
5) Kurdish was not spoken widely in the public because it is actually evolving to an urban language lately, with the flock of Kurdish population to the cities. The last 20 years showed a great change on this issue.
6) Another problem with Kurdish population is their own modernization process. In the past the Feudal Lords could be seen any where in Turkey. But in the 20th century other ethnic origins became urbanized and the feudal lords system finished. But in Kurdish regions late modernization caused this local powers to continue to live. Still Kurdish regions are considered to be more conservative on most of the issues with modernization which they are still a bit back from the mainstream modernization that tooks place. Ironically in that sense a PKK, imitating Souther American Communist guerilla tactics and the ideology of Kurdish racism is something a lot more modern than the old feudal system.
7) PKK was born in the mids of civil war between the leftists and the rightists during the 60s and 70s. Although society had paid a lot for this clash (more than 5.000 civil casualties during the civil fightings)and learned their lessons. PKK as a leftist group, became a racist group and carried on the same guerilla tactics, finding its place in the shades of the fault lines created by the modernization and urbanization process especially in the villages.
9) Ironically the Turkish and Kurdish racists and extremists are now on the same side, grouped to make this meaningless bloodshed to continue. It is discussed if they have joint operations to stage some incidents. Because if the fighting ends a lot of war lords will loose many things including the drug trade.
10) Main problems with Kurdish identity is the language which will be solved no more later than a few years time. All other Kurdish culture is quite similiar to the Turkish ones. Actually most of the Kurdish and Turkish population are also Sunnis which mean they share exactly same religious practices.
11) Kurdish villages are not the only poor ones. You can see the same extremely poor villages just 50 kms out of the capital Ankara. The truth is that the country is reaching its full speed in economics and culture and preparing for a jump, where at last the whole population will enjoy and get more.
As a last word, most of the Turkish people accepts the Kurdish people as their brothers and vice versa. With the help of more communication and more Kurdish resemblence in the public and with the propulsion of new economic growth all the tensions will calm down. Extreme racism on both hands (Kurdish or Turkish) is living its final days here. And do you know why? Because we had hundreds of years of multinational experience on making different societies enjoy freedom in one system which means this society has the right dynamics to gather the spelled things into order in its roots.
@Meast: interesting point of view. Only one thing. About point 8. The PKK didn’t want to have a civil war. They were afraid that ‘people resistance’ would go out of hand and that they would lose control. While in Northern-Iraq KDP and PUK lost control of the ‘uprising’ and later took over control.
i am a kurd and i don;t like wat pkk and turkey are doing areing we muslims. muslims killing muslims that is no good at all thats all i wont to say
“but Turkey still considered as a monster state by most Kurds. especially after seeing Turkish agression against Kurdish civilian during decenmber 07 during the Turkey’s invasion in the name of fighting PKK.”
If these ridiculous lies is the nonsense that Turkey has to put up with, my admiration for their restraint grows even more.
The operation in December 2007 was carried out against PKK enclaves deep in the Qandil mountains where there are no civilian residencies whatsoever. And this was after enduring years of daily attacks on their civilians and military.
The Iraqi Kurd (Talabani’s) response to take responsibility for terrorist actions being launched from their territory was “We will not even hand over a Kurdish cat.”
I suggest if these constant attacks had been on the US border, and if the administrators of the source territory had been so provocative in their reactions - the Qandil mountain would today be the Qandil valley, US troops would be in occupation of North Iraq having obliterated not only the PKK but the Kurdish adminisration who hosted them (just as the Taliban was dealt with re Al Qaida) - moreover, the US in this hypothetical scenario would have been fully within its moral and legal rights to have done so.
And so would Turkey.
And if the best argument against these is to concoct fairytales about anti-civilian campaigns in December 2007 that did not happen, I suggest you know it too.
If these ridiculous claims is the nonsense that Kurds have had to deal with for decades, my admiration for their patience grows even more.
Much to your dismay, US troops are already too busy destroying the rest of Iraq for no apparent reason, the result of which thousands of innocent civilians are dead. I’m sure that with your logic this too is perfectly “legal” and “moral” despite international outrage and overwhelming amount of condemnation. Many are also stating that it’s illegal, so you don’t have to portray the USA in such a heroic light when it’s not exactly a champion of legal and moral wars and abuse (Gitmo? Abu Ghraib? Please!)
My prayers are with the Kurds for having to deal with this BS and justification of abuse/oppression. And don’t you equate the PKK with the rest of Kurds. Anything the PKK does is a responsibility of just the PKK, and no one else should suffer as a result of their actions, and certainly no one should use their actions to further justify the oppression of the Kurdish minority in Turkey. The PKK doesn’t represent a huge number of Kurds whose only wish is to be respected within Turkey, and currenty they are not. You can deny that; but every Kurd in Turkey will factually state otherwise.
And, seriously, let’s not make this about the USA. This is about Turkey and the Kurds within it. I see no reason why we shouldn’t keep it that way and brag about the US in a way that will make the rest of this thread completely irrelevant.