“We can hear the Egyptian soldiers shooting”
September 9th, 2008Jerusalem–The Israeli army confirmed today that it has forced more asylum seekers back to Egypt despite warnings from human rights groups that doing so endangers their lives.
Meanwhile, Egyptian police shot dead two African refugees seeking to reach Israel near the border.
Reuters quoted security sources in Egypt as saying that Egyptian police spotted three unarmed migrants during a patrol and shot at them after they fled towards Israel. The two dead men were believed to be Sudanese, but carried no identity documents “They refused to stop or obey the police officers, prompting police to open fire and causing two to be killed,” one of the sources quoted by Reuters said. A third man was arrested..
Meanwhile, an Israeli army spokesman said that eleven Eritrean, four Sudanese and one Nigerian “infiltrators” were returned to Egypt on Sunday, bringing the total to 107 refugees returned to Egypt during the last three weeks. One forced return, on August 23, was carried out twenty minutes after refugees had come under fire from Egyptian troops, according to a reservist soldier involved in the action. An Israeli foreign ministry spokesman, Yigal Palmor, admitted “wrongdoing” in the army’s not giving 91 people returned towards the end of August a chance to explain why they wanted asylum.
“The asylum seekers were not questioned seriously. They were supposed to be given a chance to explain who they were and why they want asylum. Apparently they were not given a chance to do that,” Palmor said on Sunday.
A second Israeli soldier serving along the frontier with Egypt termed the returns “awful” during an interview on Monday.
“ We don’t know what goes on on the Egyptian side. In Egypt I don’t think they will have a life.” The soldier said.
The soldier added: “We can hear the Egyptian soldiers shooting. I really think what we hear sometimes is them shooting at people.” Twenty two migrants have been shot dead by Egyptian forces this year while trying to reach Israeli territory.
Egyptian officials have said the persons returned by Israel will be sent back to their countries of origin. Forty eight refugees returned by Israel to Egypt last August are still missing, according to the US-based Human Rights Watch group.Amnesty International says twenty of them were returned to Sudan. The punishment in Sudan for visiting Israel, an enemy state, is life imprisonment or execution, according to the Darfur Center for Human Rights..
Most among the 1200 Eritreans forced by Egypt back to Eritrea in June are in incommunicado detention in military prison, according to Amnesty International.
Israeli refugee rights advocates say the returns violate Israel’s obligations under the 1951 Convention on Refugee Rights, which bans deporting refugees to places where their lives and liberty are in danger.
The returns to Egypt may pave the way for future expulsions among the 7000 African asylum seekers who have come to Israel over the last two years, refugee rights advocates say.. The rapid returns “show that the requirement of individual scrutiny of cases is being waved here,” said Anat Ben-Dor, head of the refugee rights clinic at Tel Aviv University, which is waging a legal battle against the returns.
Michael Alford, a representative at The United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees office in Tel Aviv, said of the returns: “We need to get more information and we are talking to the Israelis and Egyptians. We take it extremely seriously but we have to know what the situation is before we start jumping up and down.”
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Your numbers are incorrect. There have been more than 10,000 African infiltrations in the last 18 months. They are continuing to come in at 15 to 20 every single day.
What would you suggest Israel do, open the border to anyone who wants a better life? No other country in the world would do this. We have one in three children in this country (Israel) living below the poverty line. Look at a map – look at where the Ivory Coast is (for example). 3,000 miles and 6 countries away.
Don’t be naive. Sure life is not great for Africans in Cairo, but they are not in danger of losing there lives. The “four freedoms” agreement between Egypt and Sudan allows for movement of people betweens the 2 countries, and they have been living there for years. The more we allow in, the more try to make it here. We are not a refugee state, we are a tiny Jewish state. No other country will take the “refugees” here. Enough is enough.
All Africans arriving in Israel are coming for purely economic reasons. If you bothered speaking to them you would find this out. I used to think like you, then I did a little bit of research and started talking to the “refugees”.
Reaching Israel is still much less dangerous than reaching Europe. The border is a land border and more than 90% of those trying to make it reach the other side (especially if they bribe bedouin people traffickers). 22 people dead out of 8,000 so far this year is by far better stats than trying to reach Spain, Malta, Greece or Italy by boat. And… where do you think the “refugees” get the $500 needed to be trafficked?
If they arrived at the Rafah terminal or JFK they would be turned back immediately. Illegally entering a country does not mean you have the right to stay there.
Of course we can feel sorry for people from poverty stricken countries wanting to better their lives, but Israel is a tiny, tiny country with a lot of poverty and a huge demographic problem. Just because someone illegally crossed the border doesn’t mean we have to absorb them. No other 3rd country will take them, why should they, they have their own problems with illegal immigration… So we are left with 1000s of illegal muslims with huge families, a high instance of HIV, and often a history of extreme violence (see the history of Sudanese migrants in Cairo, Australia, the U.K., etc,).
How do you know that the people we let in are not murderers or rapists? This when they either have refugee status in Egypt already or could have applied for it there, but prefer the conditions in Israel (as I have heard them themselves say countless times) – this is not even including those Africans from states where there is no war going on at all (e.g. Nigeria, Ghana, Kenya, etc).
The only reason that Africans who are quite safe in Egypt continue their journey to Israel is because we let them in and they send the message back that this is the case. If the numbers were not huge it would not be a problem, but there is no choice here. And no, they are not being sent back to their deaths; this is utter garbage and I wish you would not continually repeat this.
Sudanese are returning home of their own accord to South Sudan now where there is no longer a war. They know when they come to Israel they will not be sent back and that it is good for them economically. Look at the Liberians who are refusing to return now (from Israel) even though the UNHCR says that it is not problematic.
Look at the social problems they have cause in Europe, which is now closing the doors to African immigration.
Letting illegal immigrants stay (and thus effectively encouraging more to come) is an idea loved by the post-zionist left who do not want to see Israel as a Jewish State, rather a country for all citizens. I actually feel some sympathy towards this arguement, but if any refugees should be let into Israel it should be the Palestinians who at least have a moral right to the land and to live here.
A final blame for this mess has to lie with the government of the State of Israel and its incompetent leader. If they built a fence (as promised months ago) there would be no problem. It would be expensive, but worthwhile.
Jon,
What are you talking about? Where do you get these numbers from. Are you Israeli, are you Jewish? There is room for dozends of Western Immigrants every day – who really do not neet to escape from the USA to Israel. Israel should rather take in such refugees – given it’s own history, than spoiled Americans and French people.
What the government does to these people is disgusting – a shame for the whole of the Jewish People, and another reason (if even needed) to tarnish Israels reputation all around the world. If you are Israeli you should really be ashamed about this, and even more about your own attitude!
Yes Eva, I am a Jew and an Israeli (and a Meretz voting one at that!). I have worked as a volunteer with the Africans in Tel Aviv and I know what I am talking about.
I have come across many instances of Africans openly admiting that they lied (i.e. Nigerians saying that they were Sudanese), as well as others telling me quite openly that they came to Israel to get better paid jobs.
I used to think like you, but can now see how I was misled. I am left wing, yes, but I am also a Zionist, and understand that open borders will destroy Israel. The main problem is the numbers. A few hundred, even thousands is fine. We are now dealing with over 10,000 in 18 months with 20 more arrivals every day. The more that come, the more social problems we inherit and the more incentive is given for further illegal immigration. If they would leave for a 3rd country this would not be a problem, but we know that this will never be the case and that they are here to stay.
The stats are UN numbers – look them up yourself. The government claims there are many more (Vilnai, hardly a right-winger, says that there have been 20,000 infiltrations in 24 months). The most accurate stats I have found suggest that since April 2007, some 3,700 Sudanese have arrived (one third of which are from Darfur), 4,200 have come from Eritrea, and the rest are from Somalia, Kenya, Nigeria, Ivory Coast, Cameroon, Ethiopia, etc. This does not include the several hundred Africans who illegally entered the country in the few years before this current wave. 10,000 is the equivalent of half a million into the US over the same time period.
Regardless of the numbers, what you don’t seem to understand is:
1- most are not refugees and are seeking a better quality of life – if you don’t believe me, go to South Tel Aviv and ask around a little more than the standard questions (remember, people will lie to try and stay here).
2 – even those who are genuine refugees, have elected to choose Israel (a 3rd country at best) when they are assured safety by the U.N. in Egypt – sure it might not be great for them there, but their lives are not in danger.
No country in the World allows uninhibited illegal immigration. Israel has huge demographic and social problems already. One in three children live below the poverty line here. Go out and look at the real world. See the problem of illegal African migration in Spain and Italy. This is a serious problem. The government is doing too little and too late, but at least they are finally responding to the problem.
What would you suggest – anyone in Africa who wants to can some and settle in Israel? This is ultimately your arguement.
Eva, Jon’s right.
There is everything to be proud of in Israel’s response to this problem.
In fact their policy in allowing them over the border, rather than shooting to kill like the Egyptian border police too (Muslims shooting at fellow Muslims), and letting them stay here illegally is incredible. Sudan is an enemy state and yet Israel lets them come into its borders! This is insane and yet precisely because of Jewish history Israel allows it despite the dangers it poses to itself (and of course because of international law theya re obliged to take them, unlike the Egyptian authorities who are violating asylum law by shooting them or letting them pass through)
The only problem with this whole situation is that Israel has no clear policy on what to do with them once they arrive in Israel (sitting out all day in the parks in Tel Aviv). Israel has enough problems without taking on the citizens of enemy states too. No other country in the world would put up with this but for some unknown reason people like yourself believe that Israel is different and is open to be attacked on every issue that other countries would not stand for either.
We are refugees in this world. This land is not ours, these bodies, in case we think of these few days of lives that way, we would reconsider how we would treat other refugees. Countries have measures for how to help them, how many they can compensate, how to deal with their problems and I guess Egypt and Israel both have helped the African refugees, we need to remember the problems, inclusing the strategic problems facing thew countries who are enghbors and both on both sides of Gaza, with all the problems which has unfortunately spread its unwelcome shadow over that region, which I hope will sowmhow finish soon. Problems of the region has made our country Iran host of a great number of Iraqi and Afgan refugees as well. I am not sure we had been the best of hosts either. I hope countries of the region interact more to solvbe the problems that if they help one another will be solved in easier and better ways. Amen. Good luck to the African refugees.
Dear all,
– but the truth is that I suspected at that moment that you were someone else who also calls himself Jon sometimes and who “follows me” to many sites I comment or write, and he’s kinda crazy.. I know it was my own suspicion that made me feel aggressive and has nothing to do with what you actually said.
I’m sorry that it took me so long to reply, I was just awfully busy lately – but as you see I did not forget
Jon, I’m sorry I sounded so aggressive in my comment – usually I’m rather nice
In fact, reading now all the comments here I must admit that I don’t have a solution either – but like many other Israelis (not the majority, I think, though) I feel very uncomfortable when we – the Jewish People who have been persecuted so many times and also so many times been refused refuge in other places or countries – finally come to do to others what has been done to us. Most striking is what happens in the West Bank and Gaza – but for that, at least, the solution is clear and obvisous. In this matter – refugees who come for good and “bad” reasons, like it happens in many Western countries – I have no clear solution in my mind either.. But still, I think that the government doesn’t deal with that problem seriously and doesn’t do enough to try to find a better solution that sending these people simply to their death
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