Israel and the USA: Above the law?
Firstly I wish to make one thing clear. This war is not between Arabs and Jews, or Arabs and Israelis at large, or Muslims and Americans, or anything of the sort. There are Israelis, Americans, Jews, Arabs, Muslims, Christians, athiests, et al working hand in hand against clear human rights violations. Many are also actively against both Hamas and Israel but the latter receives further condemnation for reasons that are quite obvious. I find the “pro” and “anti” arguments to be entirely simplistic and factually incorrect; this case is one about justice. This is not a religious war and it has nothing to do with anti-Semitism.
The reason why people are rightfully speaking out in large numbers is because of this: Israel can get away with absolutely any crime it wishes, while advertising itself as the “moral” superpower. I welcome anyone to prove otherwise with examples on where, how, and when anyone put a stop to Israeli aggression. When has an Israeli leader been charged with war crimes, or widely condemned within the U.S government? Is it within American interests to support Israel unconditionally despite knowledge of corruption?
Anywhere from Serbia to Rwanda and Sudan, corrupt leaders are charged with war crimes and have been dealt with accordingly. Not a single sane leader in the world tolerates them or sympathized with their cause. Their horrible crimes shall never be forgotten but at least there is a sense of justice. Unfortunately we cannot say the same for victims of Palestine, Lebanon, and Syria.
How come no Israeli official has been trialed? Millions of people worldwide are condemning their actions, many are Jewish themselves. But Israel is not even in the slightest bit worried, especially when it continues to behave as if it’s just an extension of America. It’s clear that we live in a world where if you have America’s blessing, you may proceed to do whatever it is you please, no matter how immoral it is.
Either way, the question remains, are America and Israel above international law? No one has been charged for any crimes even in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, not to mention Gitmo.
If this war was between Iran and Palestine, rest assured world leaders will react differently. Foreign militaries will certainly try to intervene. Iranian leaders will be held accountable and the world will use it as an example of “terrorism” even if their claim was also “self defense against Sunni fighters who threaten the existence and national security of Iranians.” No one would care about this justification so why is it being sympathized with coming from Israel?
Now I realize the region is full of issues that we need to take care of, many are ones that rarely receive attention and are unfortunately ignored, despite it being equal in importance. However this one irks absolutely everyone in the region because for as long as Israel can get away with such abuse, injustice, and outrageous criminal behavior, it poses a major security threat to the rest of us as well, whether people wish to believe it or not. The conflict doesn’t merely involve Palestine but the Arab world at large. It proves that no one can do anything at all even if the region itself was to be nuked (after Israel relocates to Bermuda or something.) There will never be justice served, because we don’t even know who or where to request it from.
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Esraa, the answer to your question is that “war crimes” are not really crimes in the normal sense because, in war, it is legal to kill people. Therefore, whether or not a “war crime” is committed is a subjective question that often depends on who’s asking it. Let’s say Hamas stores Qassam missiles in a mosque and shoots them at an Israeli town. Israel responds by destroying the mosque, killing some innocent people nearby. Has someone committed a war crime? Because you are from an Arab country and you identify with the Palestinians most, you would probably say that Israel has committed a war crime because it killed the innocent people. If you were from Israel, you would see it differently. The only party that has certainly committed a war crime is Hamas, because they targeted civilians intentionally. Israel might have been guilty of disproportionate use of force, but that would be true only if the military value of targeting the mosque was outweighed by the risk to civilians. Israel would say that the military value of the target was high because eliminating it will stop future attacks on their civilians. International law basically allows Israel to make this decision, provided there is a valid military justification, which Hamas has provided by locating military targets among civilians. Holding “war crimes” trials in this situation would depending on finding a judge and jury that already agree Israel is guilty. That’s not really holding Israel responsible for a “crime,” but rather for fighting a war that you disagree with.
Not at all. This depends on who’s committing the crime in the first place.
Let’s say Israel holds an entire population hostage and Hamas responds by firing a few rockets, even though most of them result in 0 deaths. You are outraged by that. Yet not outraged whatsoever by scores of dead innocent civilians within Gaza whose tragedy you justify – and not even logically. I see your comment as an extremely poor attempt at a very disturbing excuse, nothing more. In addition, many Palestinians have condemned Hamas’ actions. But they also don’t justify Israel’s abuse, bigotry, and racism. You cannot deny that the State of Israel is racist in nature when it’s barring Arab political parties from running in upcoming elections, and where the Arab minority clearly suffer human rights violations. It’s an insult to democratic values to even consider Israel to be anywhere near a functioning “democracy,” and it’s even more insulting to suggest that Israel is committing its crimes in the name of “self defense.”
There are thousands of Israelis who don’t. They are mocked and abused, and soldiers refusing to serve for moral purposes are imprisoned. Many Israelis who condemn the war are too scared to even speak out.
No, this depends on what America does and doesn’t allow.
The UN, EU, European politicians, millions of American journalists, not to mention many regional Arab Jews prove differently. They have all extensively condemned Israel. Your government gets away with its severe crimes because America allows it. Without the support of America, Israel is nothing. The Israeli government itself realizes that.
Your claim that only Arabs feel this way since we see things only from an Arab perspective is entirely incorrect. Look at these Jews and Israelis bravely standing up against murders which your government commits in cold blood on a daily basis:
To Speak About the Unspeakable: By a Jewish and non-Arab author.
“I am ashamed”: Two Jewish authors. Israelis. Ashamed of their government’s crime which are committed in their name.
Judaism Without Borders: Because Israel can’t censore absolutely everyone.
Jewish anti-Zionist protesters block entrance to Israeli Consulate in LA: Because many Jews are not painfully blinded despite violence and evidenced racism.
Jeff Halper: Israeli-American lecturer, political activist, and co-founder of the Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions.
Here are some blogs from Israelis who are apparently against Israeli extremism in Gaza, compiled by a reader:
http://yarok.blogli.co.il/
http://www.haokets.org/
http://nadav.blogdebate.org/
http://www.blacklabor.org/?p=5980
http://www.2jk.org/praxis/?p=1741
http://dvarim.blogli.co.il/
http://www.notes.co.il/shooky/
There are many that are also overlooked, and these of course do not count thousands of American Jews who are outraged by the crimes and never shy away from calling it what it is. This is also besides the links I’ve used in the post itself, one in Israel and the other compiled by Western journalists who dared to speak on behalf of Palestinian human rights, and were killed for it by Israeli soldiers who continue to roam around freely despite their countless murders.
In summary, your idea that condemnation is very “Arab” and therefore too biased to be taken seriously can always be challenged. This false argument doesn’t contribute much and certainly it does not win Israel the sympathy that it so badly requires, enough to resort to these shameful measures.
I believe your response supports what I said initially. Your comments — such as “You cannot deny that the State of Israel is racist in nature” — simply underscore that you have a fundamental opposition to the state of Israel. Therefore, you would like to label their actions criminal and see them tried in a criminal court, while they consider their actions a necessary self-defense to fight a group that openly advocates continued armed conflict with Israel without compromise until Israel is destroyed. The fact that some Jews, Americans, Israelis, EU, UN, or whomever people agree with your view does not mean you are right. Of course, there are people from all those groups who disagree with you too. And I didn’t mean to claim that only Arabs support your view, I just meant that Arabs are much more likely to support your view, while Israelis are more likely not to (I think that is non-controversial). Of course, there are dissenters from the common view in both societies, and of course, it is tempting to think those on the other side that share one’s own view are the brave, correct ones. I appreciate the civilian tragedy that has taken place in Gaza. It is incredibly sad. But Hamas preaches the destruction of Israel through armed conflict and has fired rockets at southern Israel for eight years, not to mention their other attacks inside Israel, all the while shielding themselves from a serious response by cynically hiding out in hospitals, mosques, and people’s homes. Even though these rockets don’t cause many casualties, they make normal — and the pursuit of peace — impossible, because how can any country agree to make peace when it hears its rivals speaking constantly about destroying them? To then say Israel is in the same category as Rwanda war criminals — where hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians were raped and butchered for no reason — because Israel decided to launch a full-scale military attack on Hamas is unfair. Hamas has made clear it will not agree to peace with Israel on any conditions. Hamas has said the most they would ever offer Israel is a long truce so that Hamas can import much more advanced military supplies and launch a truly devastating attack on Israel. What then is the solution?
This information is factual. I already explained why. Ask this Israeli author and she will verify this, from personal experience. Alternatively, you can ask any Arab Israeli who are campaigning for their rights. If you deny an ethnic minority their human rights, while occupying another nation, is racist, then you must refer to a dictionary to remind yourself what this word actually means.
Are you serious? Israel is thriving in peace compared to Gaza, where for many months there was no food, electricity, clean water, freedom of movement, and later gets bombarded with air strikes that left nothing more than mountains of corpses. Meanwhile, as this occurs, Israelis are living a luxurious lifestyle. Life continues. Not many question the atrocity, most justify it, those who dare to are silenced and harrassed by police guards and inconsiderate soldiers. You can’t talk to us about “peace” when you have the largest military in the region, a military that has crippled and punished an entire nation, most of whom are innocent civilians and defenseless children.
You are the most secure nation in the Middle East and claiming otherwise is a result of delusional fear mongering.
This is common sense and frankly quite useless to keep stating, because I’ve already noted this is no longer between Arabs and Israelis, hence why the entire world is visibly involved.
We can start with the source of the problem: The funder. That is the USA. America supports Israel unconditionally and unquestionably despite any corruption whatsoever. Israeli influece over U.S politics is overwhelming and makes many Americans cringe.
As someone once said, “in America you can criticize God, but not Israel.”
I don’t think that Israel, or America, for that matter, are “above the law.”
But I also don’t think that this is a black or white issue.
To say that a “few” missiles were fired does not do justice to the fact that over the last eight years several thousand missiles were fired. To say that the rockets were “homemade” obscures the fact that these rockets are getting more and more sophisticated, with a range of up to 30 miles, and with a potential for hitting a population of up to 500,000. To say that the rockets have not killed too many people, is not really the point.
Suppose, for example, that one of the rockets hit a school, and killed several hundred children. Would that give Israel a moral justification for launching a ground invasion? Or suppose that a fuel tank was hit, causing the deaths of thousands of people. Would Israel be justified in retaliating?
If the answer is no, then we’re basically saying that Israel has no right to defend itself, even if its citizens are being killed. If the answer is yes, then we’re saying that Israel must wait until enough of its citizens are killed, in order to react. I don’t think that is the standard for self-defense. If somebody is launching rockets at you, you are entitled to react, and when you do, innocent people will be killed.
The argument can be made that Hamas is launching rockets because of the economic blockade. But Israel could say that the economic blockade was put in place because of the rocket fire. Why is Israel not invading the West Bank? Because no rockets are being launched from there.
My basic point is that there are equities on both sides, and both sides can make strong arguments. And in this process, the poor people on the street suffer untold horrors, and yes, they are horrors, they are unjust.
So basically, we have to decide if we want to win the argument, or we want to win the peace. It seems like a simple enough choice, but as with all things, its not at all simple. There are people in the Middle East, as we speak, who have a vested interest in keeping this conflict alive. Anyone who doesn’t believe that is being naive. Therefore, people of good will have no choice but to find a way to marginalize these extremists, wherever they may be, by not letting them set the agenda when it comes to peace, and by not letting them capture the heart and the mind of the man on the street.
Arguing back and forth, as to who is right and who is wrong does not cut it. People feel strongly on both sides, and people make valid claims on both sides, but meanwhile, the people on the street have to bear the brunt of the injustice.
If it is justice we really want, and we have to ask oursleves if that is really what we want, then we have to set aside some of what we believe, and some of what we feel, and do what it takes to marginalize the extremists, and to create facts on the ground which point to the possibility of peace.
Being right is not enough. As they say, talk is cheap. We have to create facts on the gound which bear witness to our good intentions. Build industrial zones in Gaza and the West Bank. Create jobs which grow the economy, which protect the environment, and which weaken the hold of extremist thinking. Do something which makes a difference and which speaks louder than words.
Nissim, I agree with you.
Esraa, I think you are not hearing what I am saying. I am not interested in debating whether Israel as a country is “racist” — I am just pointing out that you believe that this is “factual”, and that belief colors your view of all of Israel’s actions.
I’m not sure what you mean by saying that America funding Israel is “the source of the problem.” This conflict is older than American support for Israel. It is also funny that you say you cannot criticize Israel in America (completely untrue) and then link to an American magazine article to say that many Americans cringe at support for Israel!
Personally, I hope that one silver lining from this war (although unlikely) may be that it could increase the chance of peace settlement because both sides can claim some victory, like in the 1973 Yom Kippur war. Hamas can claim a victory because they survived the war and held on to Gaza, while Israel can claim victory because they damaged Hamas and showed the Israeli people that Israel does not just have to accept years to rocket attacks without fighting back. Both sides can walk out with some honor here. Unlike the 2006 war, which Israel basically lost, or the Intifada, which the Palestinians basically lost. History has shown that if both sides feel honorable, then maybe an agreement will be possible
Israel has the right to defend themselves. It’s being bombarded by rockets every day for the past decade. And finally when they do Muslims cry foul. Muslims talk about that those rockets dont kill people, but how many people get hurt, loose their legs you never talk about that.
A good example when you pull a gun on a cop he’s going to kill you in self defense, because he’s not going to wait till you kill him. Same goes for Israel who defend themselves.
It’s terrorists like Hamas and Hezbollah who hide behind women and children putting their lives in danger. Also, it’s the same terrorists who destroyed World Trade Center and killed thousands of people on 9/11.
They are.
By this logic, every single Palestinian has the right to defend themselves against a brutal, ruthless occupation which they suffer through daily, despite Israel’s justification of it. You can’t apply “self defense” to one nation and entirely ignore the population that actually requires it but are generally defenseless, which are the Palestinians.
What Israelis go through daily and what your merciless government is putting Palestinians through is absolutely incomparable, especially since Hamas doesn’t at all represent Palestinian interests which I already discussed extensively here and elsewhere. Thousands of Palestinians condemn it but are being aggressively and collectively punished regardless of that, which is a war crime by international standards. The only reason why anyone would collectively dismiss Palestinians as “terrorists,” including mothers and children and the elderly who make up many of the victims so far, is because they’ve fallen for the infamous tactic the Israeli government (dehumanization) which it uses in order to continue with the murders without raising concern. You’ll be happy to know that nationally, they’ve succeeded.
If Israel was truthful and truly had nothing to hide, why do they consistently ban journalists from entering the area in order to cover the massacre? If they really had nothing to hide they wouldn’t kill American and British peace activists by shooting them in the head or running over them with bulldozers, which you can’t deny they do. They wouldn’t block aid, which they did (even CNN thankfully exposed this.) They wouldn’t shoot at innocent protestors in West Bank who were holding a non-violent protest in solidarity with their Gazan brethren, badly injuring a mere child who was shot in the leg. They wouldn’t silence and abuse Arab Israelis fighting for their rights or any Israeli fighting against the murderous occupation.
So we went from the implication that “Palestinians don’t matter” to the downright accusation “Palestinians caused 9/11.” Brilliant.
I’m a natural born US Citizen and I agree 100% with what Esra says; with the USA’s support Israel is free to do whatever it likes without consequences.
With the USA’s $2.5 BILLION in annual military aid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel-United_States_military_relations#Military_aid) Israel can basically reign destruction down on the Palestinians and the Palestinians are helpless to defend themselves. The fact that many of them have “found religion” and become extremist is no surprise; any population placed under an unbearable stress will embrace extremist religious positions. The Palestinians have found themselves in a pressure cooker with the pressure constantly escalating and with no hope left to console themselves it’s a wonder more of them haven’t become suicide bombers.
Want to get Hamas out of power? Most people are moderates, by definition, and most people just want to live freely, in peace, and with hope for a positive future for their families. Dismantle the checkpoints, dismantle all the right-wing Jewish settlements in Gaza and the West Bank and stop killing Palestians and Hamas will loose it’s support. But that won’t happen because its clear that the goal of the far-right Zionists in power is not peace but instead to evict the Palenstians from their lands so that Israel can have it all. Any sane person without bias (such as myself) who studies Israel’s activities over the past many decades can’t help but see that there is no other explanation for their policies and their actions. “Hamas firing rockets” is just a red herring to allow them to pursue these genocidal policies.
What’s so especially sad is that Israel is like the abused child that grows up to be a child abuser. As the Jews once endured the unspeakable atrocities of the holocaust the Zionist Jews now inflict unspeakable atrocities on another race, and just as the German’s rationalized their treatment of the Jews so too do Jews rationalize Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians. And to paraphrase Eric Hoffer in “The True Believer” “The best way to get people to feverntly believe in a cause…” (in this case “Israel’s right to defend itself”) “… is to have those people empower truly horrific things do be done in the name of the cause. For this they will become True Believers because no one can admit to themselves that they empowered horrific actions unless they rationalize it as being ‘righteous’.”
So it seems to me that the Zionist Israeli government has studied Eric Hoffer well because it’s clear from other’s response on this thread (and throughtout the world) that even questioning the morality of Israel’s actions is beyond the pale.
IN MY OPINION ISRAEL & PALESTINE HAS THE RIGHT TO EXIST. IT IS FOR THE PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND AND IGNORE THE RADICALS. LET THEM LIVE IN PEACE BY SIDE BY SIDE
Dughri and Nissim both make important points, which is that this conflict is much older than the 30 plus years of support Israel has gotten from the US.
Also, in this aid package (and with other packages) the US earmarks certain amounts of money should be spent where – so the civilian portion of the aid is divided up into parts: x amount for building schools, x amount for stimulating the economy, ect ect. Of course, what people get so upset about is not the civilian portion of the aid, but the military portion. Israel (with Egypt second) gets the most money from the US for military purposes. But here’s the thing that so many people seem to ignore….THAT MONEY IS REQUIRED TO BE SPENT BACK IN THE US by purchasing US made products. Clearly, this is not a one-sided deal just based on arming Israel (or Egypt), it’s also a matter of economics in the US.
It’s easy to blame America for Israel’s actions, say that everything is America’s fault, and only if America stopped the aid this conflict would be solved. This is a very niave view. Do you really believe that if America stopped the aid, Israel would simply stop purchasing weapons and therefore never go to war again? No. Israel will arm itself in other ways, with or without American aid. So many other countries in this world – Cuba and Iran are just two examples – with which the US does not have diplomatic relations and certainly no aid packages still have managed to arm themselves just fine.
The solution of this problem does not lie in the fact that Israel is getting weapons from the US, the solution lies in what Nissim suggests – move past all the arguing, which is fuitless, and put some money where your mouth is. Countries all over the world need to commit funds to rebuild what has been lost in Gaza. It is my understanding that Saudi has already committed $, and although the 2009 aid package is still pending in the US Congress, I expect that when it is voted on it too will earmark funds to be spent for rebuilding in Palestine, as they have done in the past.
Also, Esra’a, by your definition of who is “above the law” – what you see as a country committing human rights violations – there is not one country in this world who then is not above the law, because human rights violations happen every day and in every country.
Hi Jessica, you’re kind of missing a lot of points and making this thread about something that it is not. Is anyone here blaming America for everything? No. I’m only stating what thousands of other Americans have stated before me: America’s support of Israel is unquestionable and reflects poorly upon America as a country and Americans as citizens. It’s not within your interests to actually support a government that revolves around violence, racist ideologies and militarism (this is something many Israelis will admit, some of whom served in the military.)
With all due respect Nissim keeps suggesting this without contributing peaceful solutions himself. I appreciate his comments. Nissim clearly wants peace and I respect that. But there is no peace without dialogue, you cannot burry the sea of wonders and concerns and bring people together when there’s hatred embedded in everyone’s hearts. At this stage, Palestinians will always want to seek revenge, what they have suffered through is not easy. It is a hugely traumatic experience which I cannot believe you will be able to survive, hence why you’re both making such arguments, and claims of “naivete” in the comforts of your home in the USA. But spend one day in Gaza and I dare you to write the same things as you are right now.
Start listening to what people want and need, stop compiling arrogant “solutions” with the assumption that you know exactly what we want, because you don’t. You need to listen to us first and many of you refuse to.
Once again you miss the point entirely. This isn’t about mere human rights, this is about war crimes. If another country attacks another, or commits genocide in its own, then it’s held accountable for it throughout the world and we see leaders every other year trialed for this. But America and Israel will always get away with it, and that’s a fact. Neither you nor Nissim refuted it, you’re just saying things backed with political ideologies that are clearly in favor of both Israel and the USA, which is understandable, but it clearly doesn’t at all represent or consider our interests and security.
If you want to make a difference, join your American, Jewish, and Israeli friends in condemning injustices regardless of who commits them, including Israel. Stop making excuses, Jessica, Nissim, and others. You’re hurting not just yourseves but also insulting the millions of people who are suffering in the hands of your governments. Condemning this violence is all we’re asking for and frankly it’s not much. We condemn Hamas, Al Qaeda, Hezbollah, et al, all the time. Put your pride behind and condemn your extremists as well.
Just watching Obama’s inauguration…impressive!
Will prez Obama be looking for war criminals in the US over the latest Gaza attacks? Quite frankly, no. Will he be supporting any motions in the UN naming Israeli officials or military officers as war criminals and being trundled off to the Hague? Probably not. Will he be trying “Dubya”, or Bill Clinton for providing material assistance to the terrorist state of Israel? Don’t see it happening. Does that put them above the law? Guess it depends what law you are talking about.
The US has not and probably never will pay attention to UN resolutions that criticize it’s foreign policy decisions, and has a disappointing record of not going up the chain of command when investigating and trying war crimes committed by its forces. However, such investigations do take place, which, while inadequate in the eyes of many are still a damn sight better than the internal abuse follow-ups in most Middle Eastern nations. Perhaps under Obama they will get more stringent…
We’ve gone round and round about the Gaza/Israel fight, and basically Israel is wrong to just write off civilian causalties, and Hamas is just wrong to be a fanatic, extremist mafia who could care less about the people who elected them, as well as poor shots, as has been mentioned ad nauseum. Neither side has, at this point, any kind of moral high ground. So, to the question at hand, Israel will probably start doing policy based war trials on it’s leadership over the killing of innocent civilians about the same time that Hamas does.
To the Israel supporters here, however, I have a question: the West Bank has been quiet, peaceful and civilized over the last two years. They have rejected Hamas’ brtual philosophy, and offered again and again to nation-build, negotiate and proceed on many of the principles that the world has said are necessary for progress. For their pains they have seen more and more of their land stolen by the Wall, settlers backed by the IDF abusing and dispossessing them, and more of Jerusalem being denied them, all still under the prison-camp like conditions of a virtual military occupation of their borders. So, what about the other half of the Palestinian nation that is not being ruled by an absurd blood carnival? What justification does Israel have for their treatment?
Esra’a, you ask me to listen to you first and say that I refuse to. Would I be reading and commenting on this website if I wasn’t listening?
And the ‘people’ you refer to, which ‘people’ is that? What people ‘want and need’ is subjective, and I happen to have a different perspective than you. Yes, many share your perspective, but many share mine as well. Which brings us back to the arguing. I in no way am diminishing the sufferings of so many people in Gaza by requesting that we move beyond the arguing, I am merely stating – as so many others have stated – that there needs to come a point where blaming and arguing needs to stop or NOTHING will be accomplished to move forward and rebuild. Yes, there will be no peace without dialogue, but all the arguing is not actually a dialogue – it’s a pointing of fingers with no real attempts at working with the other side to get peace. Many countries are at fault for this, including America.
With regards to what represents “your interests and security” we simply differ on what exactly protects your (and mine) interests and security. yes, I am in the USA, and you are in Bahrain. That does not make your opinion or your thoughts any less valuable, important, or right than mine. Our respective locations are irrelevant, so why did you bring that up?
Esra’a you have no idea who I work with or stand up for, or how much I have or have not condemned violence not only in Gaza but elsewhere. Or how much I have condemned “my own extremists.” Extremism in any form is never good. I think all of my comments, both on this article and elsewhere on this site, have respectuflly shown my clear position on advocating for peace over war and for the advancement of human rights. But when war does happen – and it unfortunately always will – I think it is better to move forward and talk about realistic solutions than sit and point fingers.
Then:
I’ve never, ever seen you do this.
Which extremists, Esra’a? How about the pastor in the US who, post-Hurricane Katrina, insisted that God brought the storm onto New Orleans because of all the gay people who live there! He’s a piece of ****. Or, to look for past examples, Hitler’s a great one. I definitely condemn what he did. I can go on and on: those who participated in the 1990s Rwandan genocide; those who were responsible for apartheid in South Africa; the pirates in Somalia.
The thing is, Esra’a, what you are asking for is not an actual condemnation of extremisim but that I condemn who YOU think is extreme. I will not condemn Isreal for going into Gaza, Isreal has a legitimate right to sef-defense. I will, however, condemn Israel’s use of white phosphorus as a tool of war. I will also condemn Israel’s choice of targets, the UN school is just one example – but I believe that Hamas is to be partially blamed for that as they use women and children as shields and store weapons in mosques and schools.
Now, sadly, Esra’a, we are exactly where I said was pointless – arguing about who was right, which came first the blockade or the bombs, whose land is it, ect. That argument has been going on for years and years with little progress.
Nissim’s idealogies might not provide for tangible solutions, as you pointed out in your previous post….but they do still provide hope. And without hope there is no opportunity for dialogue OR rebuilding.
i think, and i believe you know that if palestine and syria and lebanon and iran really wanted peace, you would see it happen. Facts are stubborn things, and one fact i know, palestine syria lebanon hezzbollah and hamas and iran do not want peace with israel, and they are very honest about that, dont know what rock you live under, but apparently you must be from one of those countries mr ezra. it has to start with recognizing israel, they are a country same as iran and syria and how long do you have to watch the rockets leaving palestine and now lebananon heading in to israel.
some history lessons would teach you that israel has been a country since mid 19 forties, its time for the arabs to get on with life and try to live in peace.
maybe if the palestinians and iranians, hamas, hezbollah and all the rest of the militant arabs would say something other than death to israel, peace could be on the horizon. the bible also states that israel is Gods chosen country, and was given the land upon which they live now. so i dont see how the arabs will ever see peace until they see the truth.
In my opinion, that is extreme. It encourages the kind of extremism and militarism that many are risking their lives fighting against, peacefully.
I wish you would address Eric’s question:
Esra’a, there are many who agree with me, and many who agree with you. You will not change my mind, and I am sure I will not change yours; not matter how much dialoge we have. The question is how we can work together, with our different perspectives and opinions, to move forward.
So here are some of my thoughts on this matter. I think that the US should condition aid to Israel, and aid to Egypt, and all other aid packages based on violations of human rights. I also think the US should allocate a specific portion – increased from last year’s levels – of aid that goes specifically to rebuilding homes and schools and hospitals in Gaza. Now, which families get this money? How will it be distributed? My first instinct would be the UN, but they haven’t exactly proven themselves as the best distributor of international funds. The local governments are an option, but rife with curroption. I have no answer for this, mostly because the distribution of aid will never be 100% clean despite all the best intentions.
Conditioning US aid has been an extreme struggle in Congress…for years, certain Congressman have been pushing for this with Egypt to no success. I anticipate that much more restraint would be found with regards to conditioning aid to Israel. This is a delicate political balance, of course, but if it happens slowly and surely it might – over time – make a difference.
Jessica for President, but only after Obama.
Esra’a, I just received an e-mail from the director of the World Economic Processing Zones Association. This fine gentleman helped to create Qualified Industiral Zones in Jordan and Egypt, but was not successful in creating one in the Palestinian Territories, although he tried.
In Jordan along, he helped increase exports to the U.S. from 10 million dollars to over one billion in six years. He says that industiral zones are the path to peace. I don’t think you would call him naive.
It is easy to see all the horrific violence, and the tragic loss of innocent human life, and to draw some very incriminating conclusions about Israel.
Some see Israel as racist, or blood thirsty, or imperialistic, or what have you.
I see Israel as basically a decent country, that has the potential to be even better, but that has not yet realized that potential fully, due to circumstances of her own making, and due as well, to circumstances beyond her control.
If Israel were out to destroy the Palestinians, how do we explain that 20% of Israel is composed of Palestinian Arabs who enjoy full citizenship, but who also, it is true, do face some discrimination?
If Israel were out to destroy the Palestinians, how do we exlain that in the year 2000, Ehud Barak, who was then Prime Minister, but who is now defense minister, and who just orchestrated this war, offered President Arafat the following:
1. Control over East Jerusalem
2. Control of the Muslim Holy sights
3. All of Gaza
4. Approximately 94% to 96% of the West Bank
5. Land from Israel to offset the land kept in the West Bank
6. A dismantlement of almost all the settlements
7. An independent Palestinian State
8. 30 billion dollars of compensation to the refugees
9. Some repatriation of the refugess based on humanitarian concerns
This offer was rejected by President Arafat, without a counter offer, and with the Second Intifada as a response.
I have said this before, and I will say it again: There is no country on earth that wants peace more, and that will help Palestinians more, than Israel. It is true that this conflict is draining Jews and Israelis of at least a part of their essence, of their historical and religious legacy to be good by doing good.
Like Eric, I just witnessed President Obama’s Inauguration. Maybe I’m missing something, but I have to agree with Jessica and with Dughri, that there may be new opportunities for peace in the offing. What we are trying to say is that it will be up to all of us, even on this website, to be open to these opportunities, even if it means feeling somewhat unsatisfied in our desire to place blame. There are extremists on all sides of this conflict, and in virtually every country on earth. We cannot allow these people to rob us of our future. We have to sieze the moment, see the madness for what it is, and reconstruct the sad state of affairs into something new, into a future that is worth living.
Let’s begin by giving each other the benefit of the doubt. And let’s continue by replacing our doubts with hard evidence, based on hard work, that things can get better, that this is a new day, and that we do not have to remain the prisoners of our past.
Unfortunately I can’t see this happening without mutual respect of each other’s lives. There is not a single Arab, Iranian or Kurdish person on this site who advocates the killing of any American or any Israeli, in fact any act of violence and terrorism has been strongly denounced on this site and on the individual blogs of our authors. I am so honored and proud to share this platform with Americans and Israelis who also condemn any Israeli or American violence as opposed to only violence coming from the “other side.” But we also share it with authors who disagree with that, Nissim being one of them, since his arguments are always respectful regardless of how much we obviously disagree.
To put it simply, it is very hard for us to work with people who don’t condemn the loss of innocent lives and who justify collective punishment. People who consider American or Israeli lives to be more worthy as opposed to equal in worth to ours are not going to be amongst the ones who work for real change and peace in the world.
Judging from your comments, I can’t help but think that if I was Gazan today you would not appreciate my existence. You will not feel sorry if I was tragically murdered or if I saw my children tortured in front of me. We condemned Hamas for its actions, a Gazan himself wrote here and noted also in a podcast that Hamas is playing with human lives, but also condemned Israel as its actions were entirely aggressive. Moving forward means you will have to condemn violence on both ends, and not just one. It’s impossible to move forward by enforcing only your ideology. You have to give and take; you can’t just take and expect for any agreement to be “mutual.”
Esra’a, I would never, ever say that one American’s life is ‘worth’ more than a Gazan’s, or a Bahrainis, or Iraqis, or anyone else. (I put worth in qoutes because I don’t think you can actually put a worth on a human life) Twisting my words by trying to imply that I think otherwise is not a fair representation of my comments on this site, nor does it accurately reflect my opinion.
Yes, moving forward does mean that there must be a give and take. So tell me where in my comments did I say that I have given a blanket go-ahead and blind support for all of Israel’s actions? I never said that, I merely said that in this istance I think Israel had a right to defend themselves, even though I condemn how they fought the war (with the white phosporus, by targeting schools, ect). I certainly condemn the torture of children.
There absolutely must be a mutual understanding on both sides in order to move forward. So let’s talk about how that can happen. I already gave my suggestions on the conditioning of aid from the US. You have not said a word about that, you just continue to accuse me of being complicit and supportive of murder, torture, and everything else terrible. Money will never bring back the lives lost, but it can help repair damage to material things – homes, farms/gardens, hospitals, ect – that will serve the Gazans for a better life in the future. That is why I am saying that I would support America’s funding of rebuilding efforts in Gaza.
Unquestionably, peace is the much better option than war. All those fighting for peace have my respect. But war has been a part of society since the begining of time, it is – unfortunately – not going away anytime soon. When it does occur, the question is – again – how to move on.
That’s really good. I support this statement 100%
Because you have first stated your support of Israel without actually condemning the abuse and the way they have fought the war. We must also remember that Israel denies human rights to its Arab ethnic minority, which the USA should be seriously concerned about if they keep funding them so obsessively. The USA states concerns for minorities denied human rights in Egypt (which it also funds) but has not once critized Israel’s denial of human rights within the country, or their use of illegal substances in battles, or the illegal settlements for that matter that the UN, EU, et al have openly condemned. This is what my post was about.
But now, how to move on:
- Uniting against terrorism and extremism. This is not merely a “suggestion” but rather our responsibility.
- New leadership, where each one of us plays a role instead of having a handful of powerful elites represent us. Today what the US shows us is that change is possible but also that it takes leadership to see a new way forward. Obama’s people were slaves, worth less than a white life not too long ago. But that took courage, leadership, and a war to overturn.
- Saying no to extreme nationalism (chauvinism) and working hard to ensure that others embrace diversity and commit to justice regardless of the aggressor.
We are doing what must be done, we are participating in a dialogue, and though we have different opinions, we all share a respect for human life, all human life, irrespecrtive of race, religion, nationality or politics. All life is equal and precious.
As long as we can all agree to that underlying premise, we have a basis for moving forward.
Esra’a, re-read my comment made 11:56:
I will not condemn Isreal for going into Gaza, Isreal has a legitimate right to sef-defense. I will, however, condemn Israel’s use of white phosphorus as a tool of war. I will also condemn Israel’s choice of targets, the UN school is just one example – but I believe that Hamas is to be partially blamed for that as they use women and children as shields and store weapons in mosques and schools.
So, clearly I stated my support for Isreal WHILE ALSO condemning some ways they have fought the war.
You have continiously twisted my words, made me into being something I am not, and now also have egregiously misqouted me.
If that’s the case then I apologize for misunderstanding. Now let’s focus on the “moving forward” part.
And we are agreed on the 3 bullet points you mentioned. (although as we have already discussed, you and I have differing views on what constitutes terrorism and extremism mentioned in point #1)
This dialogue is good practice for when the real thing comes. And the real thing is coming soon. And notice that it is the women among us who are best able to bring us together. Empower women, in ways that they deem appropriate, and you will have changed the face of the Middle East, and the whole world at large.
Esra’a, is something off with the site? I have to register for every comment, and I can’t highlight anything. In fact, you’re the only one who seems to be able to highlight your points, which puts all of us common folk at a distinct disadvantage. Please advise.
Ok, Esra’a
Here is the test. You said, “No one has been charged for any crimes even in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, not to mention Gitmo.”
You are wrong. U.S. soldiers have been charged and are currently serving prison time for the abuses at, Abu Ghraib Prison. And, that is not the only time U.S. soldiers have been charged in Iraq by the U.S. government. But, that is sufficient to disprove your assertion that no one has been charged.
Once again, you said, “No one has been charged for any crimes even in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, not to mention Gitmo.”
But, you were wrong.
The site is currently undergoing some changes, and we do acknowledge that there are some bugs being caused in the process.
Please be patient, because really – it’s all worth it
As for highlighting points, I think you refer to blockquote. If you wish to quote from an earlier comment, enclose it in < blockquote >tags (spaces should be removed). For instace:
< blockquote >The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog < / blockquote >
Here is a sincere and brave letter from an Israeli woman to President Obama. I wish more Israelis were like this, but judging from the comments in this thread I won’t bet on it:
Actually, Esra’a, you may find this hard to believe, but I, for one, would agree with most of what this kind lady has to say. I do love Israel, but I also recognize that the occupation is an albatross around her neck, which prevents her from realizing her highest potential, and from realizing the ideals on which she was founded.
The trick, however, whether you’re President Obama, or anyone else, for that matter, is; How do we pull it off? How do we end the occupation without creating something worse in its place? And that is where cool, calm, and collected minds must prevail, to bring about an end to the occupation, while at the same time empowering Palestinians to take charge of their own destiny, in a responsible and constructive way. Not for Israel’s sake alone, but for theirs as well.
No wonder!!!! for them “usa and israel”, everything they do is justified for good reasons and na na na we we are the peace makers!! what a peace you are making???????????justifing what??????????killing like animals???repeating it again and again like the one back 70′s in lebanon??? and every time with a new reasons ha!!!!!!!!!!
http://www.elfarra.org/gallery/gaza.htm
The war was against Islamic fanaticism. Israel and the US are the only two countries in the world fighting this threat to the world.
As for war crimes, I am not aware that Israel committed any. It dropped pamphlets, SMSed people in their homes. Gazans knew at least a week before the operation what would be happening if Hamas didn’t stop the rocket bullshit.
There were no weapons used by Israel that are considered off limits in times of war. The Hamas should be tried for war crimes: using low grade bombs with shrapnel, creating rocket firing sites in and around mosques, schools, and peoples’ homes. And operating in civilian clothing. What did they do to defend their people? What did they do to Fatah when Hamas came in power? If you want to talk about animals look at the Hamas.
We need to learn more about “war crimes” and the tactics of war to wage a legitimate debate. Otherwise, it’s silly to argue.
Israelis don’t see themselves as peacemakers. They see themselves as defending the only democratic country in the Middle East. If I asked my friends in Lebanon, Qatar, or Iran, I am sure that most of them if they could choose to live in a democracy and not a regime (like Iran) or under a patriarchy.
This part made me chuckle very hard. It’s just way too ridiculous of an argument, something all Palestinian Christians and any other Palestinian/Arab will LOL at.
Further proving the points in my article is this video:
“Hypocracy of America and Israel knows no bounds”
I think Israel, isn´t totally in right, if they say are only self-defense. They stifle the palestinan.
That war was sensless. The countries which “helped” the war-parties made it worser. They gave
Israel and all other countries money to buy guns.
Please,
Some one please enumerate the war crimes Israel commited.
Can anyone name any ?
Because HAMAS definitely commited warcrimes.
Ask me. I will name the warcrimes commited by hamas.
1) Collective Punishment
2) The use of white phosphorus
3) Disproportionate military response
4) White flags ignored and houses bulldozed with families inside
5) Attacking schools and ambulances
Just to name a few. Justifying all of the above is inhumane. Thousands of Palestinians already condemn Hamas, you need to seriously realize that this conflict is beyond them. They’re brave enough to condemn Hamas yet they’re being killed and tortured by Israel regardless of that, so making petty justifications for Israel despite civilian deaths and merciless aggression only fuels hate mongering and further abuse.
The use of white phosphorus is NOT a war crime according to the laws of war. If enemy combatants are using schools and ambulances for military purposes, attacking them is not a war crime either. You know, there is plenty of documentation of HAMAS launching attacks from schools and using ambulances to transport their fighters. So, you were not correct about those so-called war crimes. Is it possible you are mistaken about the others you listed as well ?
Respectfully,
Derek
Esra’a,
I thank Allah that my prayers have been answered. No you read to be more aligned with your core essence and benefit. I wish you well.
This conflict is really about a lot more than Israel and Hamas. This conflict is about the future of the Middle East, and its relationship with the Western world.
We can blame Israel, and some of the criticism is justified, but some of it is not. But if we keep our focus there, we will lose sight of the much larger picture.
I saw a news item the other day about a place called Swat Valley in Pakistan. Have any of you heard of this place? It used to be a destination resort, for skiing and the like, but now, the Taliban have taken over. Since then, some 180 schools have been intentionally destroyed. Most of the police force has either been killed or has quit. People are being beated on the streets, with wooden rods, for being drug addicts.
The sad fact is that there is an ideology in parts of the Muslim world which knows no bounds, which takes itself too seriously, and which will play itself out, at our mutual expense, unless it is stopped.
The vast majority of Muslims are good and peace loving people. But, wherever and however we wish to assign blame, on Israel, or America, or on any other nations for that matter, we cannot lose sight of this extremist element, who know exactly what they want to accomplish, and who are empowered by ideological conviction.
The question becomes, therefore; What will it take to stop them, if we conclude that stopping them is in our mutual interest? And is it possible that stopping them will involve taking steps which may be against our system of values, but which are necessary nonetheless? In other words, can we really afford not to do what we have to do, even if it makes us sick to our stomachs?
Using it intentionally on civilians is, and that’s what Israel did.
Not exactly. Everything I noted has been proven and documented with videos, photos, even reports from Israeli activists and international journalists. The IDF can’t hide their crimes anymore; everyone is aware of them, and denying it doesn’t help. I’m sorry if that hurts your political ideology and pride, but these are the facts.
Look,
I care about the lives of Palestinian civilians. I think they need accurate information so they can make decisions to protect themselves. The fact is, It is not a war crime to strike military targets even if those targets are in civilian areas. They need to know that. They need to know that if they are near a military target during a conflict, then they need to move. You don’t believe me ? Fine. Do your own research about the Laws of Armed Conflict. But giving them false information certainly doesn’t help them and probably results in more civilian deaths.
Respectfully,
Derek
I also thank Allah that Mahmood is no longerأَنزَلَ مِنَ السَّمَاء مَاء فَسَالَتْ أَوْدِيَةٌ بِقَدَرِهَا فَاحْتَمَلَ السَّيْلُ زَبَداً رَّابِياً وَمِمَّا يُوقِدُونَ عَلَيْهِ فِي النَّارِ ابْتِغَاء حِلْيَةٍ أَوْ مَتَاعٍ زَبَدٌ مِّثْلُهُ كَذَلِكَ يَضْرِبُ اللّهُ الْحَقَّ وَالْبَاطِلَ فَأَمَّا الزَّبَدُ فَيَذْهَبُ جُفَاء وَأَمَّا مَا يَنفَعُ النَّاسَ فَيَمْكُثُ فِي الأَرْضِ كَذَلِكَ يَضْرِبُ اللّهُ الأَمْثَالَ [الرعد : 17]13|17|He sendeth down water from the sky, so that valleys flow according to their measure, and the flood beareth (on its surface) swelling foam from that which they felt in the fire in order to make ornaments and tools riseth a foam like unto it thus Allah coineth (the similitude of) the true and the false. Then, as for the foam, it passeth away as scum upon the banks, while, as for that which is of use to mankind, it remaineth in the earth. Thus Allah coineth the similitudes.