Comments on: Burqini Troubles http://www.mideastyouth.com/2009/08/12/burqini-troubles/ Thinking Ahead Sat, 11 Feb 2012 20:46:46 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Maher http://www.mideastyouth.com/2009/08/12/burqini-troubles/#comment-23499 Maher Thu, 20 Aug 2009 14:20:30 +0000 http://www.mideastyouth.com/?p=4882#comment-23499 Pam, Your fear of women wearing a burqua is unjustified I reckon. You don't have to see a muslim doctor wearing a burqua, nor do you have to place your kids with a teacher who is covered. Since you are a Brit I assume, you are full aware that the UK and The US claim to be the leaders of the FREE world. So why Muslim women cannot enjoy that freedom also? Why can't they be doctors, teachers, surgeons, nannies, lawyers or just regular housewives that have different way of dressing and contribute to society as other women do? The general public is not obligated to see theses doctors etc...If you have a fear regarding covered women, some muslims actually prefer the idea. For instance, a muslim woman would rather be seen by a woman than an OBGYN man. You have got to look at this issue from both side, not just yours. Those muslims that are currently in the UK -most of which are from the Indian sub-continent- have been brought up years ago to help develop the infrastructure of the Uk. The British government knew they were muslims, they knew their way of life and how they dressed. They did not seem to object to that back then...So why now? Why all the fuss about the burqua now? Pam,

Your fear of women wearing a burqua is unjustified I reckon. You don’t have to see a muslim doctor wearing a burqua, nor do you have to place your kids with a teacher who is covered. Since you are a Brit I assume, you are full aware that the UK and The US claim to be the leaders of the FREE world. So why Muslim women cannot enjoy that freedom also? Why can’t they be doctors, teachers, surgeons, nannies, lawyers or just regular housewives that have different way of dressing and contribute to society as other women do? The general public is not obligated to see theses doctors etc…If you have a fear regarding covered women, some muslims actually prefer the idea. For instance, a muslim woman would rather be seen by a woman than an OBGYN man. You have got to look at this issue from both side, not just yours. Those muslims that are currently in the UK -most of which are from the Indian sub-continent- have been brought up years ago to help develop the infrastructure of the Uk. The British government knew they were muslims, they knew their way of life and how they dressed. They did not seem to object to that back then…So why now? Why all the fuss about the burqua now?

]]> By: pam http://www.mideastyouth.com/2009/08/12/burqini-troubles/#comment-23498 pam Thu, 20 Aug 2009 08:06:10 +0000 http://www.mideastyouth.com/?p=4882#comment-23498 In the UK mosques have ordered a compulsory dress code for muslims, and non muslims are not allowed in muslim sessions, which as you can imagine is causing utter divisiveness here, none of this is helping foster any kind of social cohesion and is only causing prejudice on a French scale, the French have never dealt well with immigrants well from day one, whereas we in the UK have always tried to foster integration and it works, mostly. The knifing and shootings you hear about in London and other cities are black on black in 90% of the cases (why do they hate eachother so much :() With the new muslim rules, it will blow the whole country apart and we cannot allow this to happen, so you see how things harden and become intransigent and hatred and wars develop, there has to be another way! I am not prepared to give up my freedoms in any way, and I think that if the rules of this country do not suit ultra religious people (and most people I know are atheists) then move on to a country where you can practise your faith. But people love the UK, fight to get here, so oyu must ask yourself why. In the UK mosques have ordered a compulsory dress code for muslims, and non muslims are not allowed in muslim sessions, which as you can imagine is causing utter divisiveness here, none of this is helping foster any kind of social cohesion and is only causing prejudice on a French scale, the French have never dealt well with immigrants well from day one, whereas we in the UK have always tried to foster integration and it works, mostly. The knifing and shootings you hear about in London and other cities are black on black in 90% of the cases (why do they hate eachother so much :( ) With the new muslim rules, it will blow the whole country apart and we cannot allow this to happen, so you see how things harden and become intransigent and hatred and wars develop, there has to be another way! I am not prepared to give up my freedoms in any way, and I think that if the rules of this country do not suit ultra religious people (and most people I know are atheists) then move on to a country where you can practise your faith. But people love the UK, fight to get here, so oyu must ask yourself why.

]]> By: Sarah http://www.mideastyouth.com/2009/08/12/burqini-troubles/#comment-23497 Sarah Thu, 20 Aug 2009 03:27:22 +0000 http://www.mideastyouth.com/?p=4882#comment-23497 Thank you for the comment, Jay, and also the lessons. Thank you for the comment, Jay, and also the lessons.

]]> By: Maher http://www.mideastyouth.com/2009/08/12/burqini-troubles/#comment-23496 Maher Wed, 19 Aug 2009 22:44:24 +0000 http://www.mideastyouth.com/?p=4882#comment-23496 As a muslim, I find that the idea of a muslim woman wearing the Burqua-or a muslim man for that matter- and going to a swimming pool defeats the core purpose of this religion. I honestly tend to agree with the pool management and their decision. To swim, you have got to wear swim gears. Pools are for swimmers wearing trunks and bathing suits. What would be next? North african aged women coming with their Jellabas and all the garments underneath asking bathe? If you are a practicing muslim(a), you should not be in such places in the first place. I do disagree wholeheartedly with the French governement for banning the scarf from schools. I would categorize it as xenophobia without hesitation. I have studied in France for few years and I have been the subject of many racial slurs. I have seen people being refused from coffee shops/retaurants just beacuse they looked North African. Racism is alive an well in france, no doubt about that. The Government that is supposed to help the people is really the main culprit in my opinion. It does not do nearly enough to tackle this problem. As a muslim, I find that the idea of a muslim woman wearing the Burqua-or a muslim man for that matter- and going to a swimming pool defeats the core purpose of this religion. I honestly tend to agree with the pool management and their decision. To swim, you have got to wear swim gears. Pools are for swimmers wearing trunks and bathing suits. What would be next? North african aged women coming with their Jellabas and all the garments underneath asking bathe? If you are a practicing muslim(a), you should not be in such places in the first place.

I do disagree wholeheartedly with the French governement for banning the scarf from schools. I would categorize it as xenophobia without hesitation. I have studied in France for few years and I have been the subject of many racial slurs. I have seen people being refused from coffee shops/retaurants just beacuse they looked North African. Racism is alive an well in france, no doubt about that. The Government that is supposed to help the people is really the main culprit in my opinion. It does not do nearly enough to tackle this problem.

]]> By: Jay J. Your "driving instructor" http://www.mideastyouth.com/2009/08/12/burqini-troubles/#comment-23495 Jay J. Your "driving instructor" Wed, 19 Aug 2009 22:33:17 +0000 http://www.mideastyouth.com/?p=4882#comment-23495 Dear Sarah, (The world) First and formost, let me congrt.. you for passing the driving test. No one told me anything about it, but my guts/ guess. Few days ago (8/16) my front lobe start firing some GABA, MAO, and the pharm into my neurones. You are an excellent driver...You should've nailed it by now. Promess me, next time you'll take me to that parking lot, ha ha ha Regarding your article, I may say, I was not surprised, but rather proud of you. I am aware of your writing skills and prouess. for quite sometime now, but never had the chance to read such a piece like this. It's eloquent and insghtful. Sarkosy took too much liberty, he's being too critical and argumentative in many cutural/religious issues, just to mention few...Comme on dit, il est un "peu, peut être trop imbu de préjugés, il est prétentieux et vaniteux sur certains points. He seems unawre of his faux pas... I hope one of his aids in the Elysée Press dept. will serve him your piece with his morning café before his jogging session. If he's a man of substance, he would cancel his outing that day, and think about his mistakes of the lst 28 months in office, sic! Bravo Sarah, keep good work. Dr. Jay J. Hamdouch Dear Sarah, (The world)

First and formost, let me congrt.. you for passing the driving test. No one told me anything about it, but my guts/ guess. Few days ago (8/16) my front lobe start firing some GABA, MAO, and the pharm
into my neurones. You are an excellent driver…You should’ve nailed it by now.

Promess me, next time you’ll take me to that parking lot, ha ha ha

Regarding your article, I may say, I was not surprised, but rather proud of you. I am aware of your writing skills and prouess. for quite sometime now, but never had the chance to read such a piece like this. It’s eloquent and insghtful.

Sarkosy took too much liberty, he’s being too critical and argumentative in many cutural/religious issues, just to mention few…Comme on dit, il est un “peu, peut être trop imbu de préjugés, il est prétentieux et vaniteux sur certains points. He seems unawre of his faux pas…

I hope one of his aids in the Elysée Press dept. will serve him your piece with his morning café before his jogging session. If he’s a man of substance, he would cancel his outing that day, and think about his mistakes of the lst 28 months in office, sic!

Bravo Sarah, keep good work.

Dr. Jay J. Hamdouch

]]> By: Mandy B. (United States) http://www.mideastyouth.com/2009/08/12/burqini-troubles/#comment-23494 Mandy B. (United States) Sat, 15 Aug 2009 19:49:23 +0000 http://www.mideastyouth.com/?p=4882#comment-23494 I agree with you...I too prefer to see someones face, for the many reasons the responses here have outlined. I just don't know that bans and laws are the way to liberate someone. It is just treating the symptom, not the problem. I agree with you…I too prefer to see someones face, for the many reasons the responses here have outlined. I just don’t know that bans and laws are the way to liberate someone. It is just treating the symptom, not the problem.

]]> By: pam http://www.mideastyouth.com/2009/08/12/burqini-troubles/#comment-23493 pam Sat, 15 Aug 2009 19:21:21 +0000 http://www.mideastyouth.com/?p=4882#comment-23493 right! Jack Straw our awful UK foreign minister (who happens to be jewish) banned a teacher from wearing the burqa and rightly so, I would have withdrawn my child, I also will not be treated by a doctor whose face I cannot see, and my muslim doctor friends do not see the point of wearing sich a thing either, so I am not alone in my opinions. I guess it was brilliant once to hide a suicide bomber but...I think there should be a universal ban as the dignity of the women and security are uppermost. I mean, if it to hide themselves against the licentious gaze of men, shouldn't men change their dirty habits, why should the woman conform, it is not her who has the rude thoughts, well, not on such a scale! right! Jack Straw our awful UK foreign minister (who happens to be jewish) banned a teacher from wearing the burqa and rightly so, I would have withdrawn my child, I also will not be treated by a doctor whose face I cannot see, and my muslim doctor friends do not see the point of wearing sich a thing either, so I am not alone in my opinions. I guess it was brilliant once to hide a suicide bomber but…I think there should be a universal ban as the dignity of the women and security are uppermost. I mean, if it to hide themselves against the licentious gaze of men, shouldn’t men change their dirty habits, why should the woman conform, it is not her who has the rude thoughts, well, not on such a scale!

]]> By: limpia http://www.mideastyouth.com/2009/08/12/burqini-troubles/#comment-23492 limpia Sat, 15 Aug 2009 18:54:22 +0000 http://www.mideastyouth.com/?p=4882#comment-23492 Re: the discussion of burqa- this is the garment that only reveals the eyes, similiar to the niqab. the hijab, however, is the head covering. Sarkozy referred only to burqa and niqab- the hiding of the face, which is against human dignity. I dontthink that it is our cultural upbringing that makes us rely on the identification of an individual by the face. I think it is the way humans are best able to identify others. Therefore, it is offensive to me in the extreme. However,another reason it is something that shouldbe banned(400 women or less) is that is a security issue, just as are all face coverings. due to the need humans have to identify by recognition of the face. Re: the discussion of burqa- this is the garment that only reveals the eyes, similiar to the niqab. the hijab, however, is the head covering. Sarkozy referred only to burqa and niqab- the hiding of the face, which is against human dignity. I dontthink that it is our cultural upbringing that makes us rely on the identification of an individual by the face. I think it is the way humans are best able to identify others. Therefore, it is offensive to me in the extreme. However,another reason it is something that shouldbe banned(400 women or less) is that is a security issue, just as are all face coverings. due to the need humans have to identify by recognition of the face.

]]> By: pam http://www.mideastyouth.com/2009/08/12/burqini-troubles/#comment-23491 pam Sat, 15 Aug 2009 18:17:36 +0000 http://www.mideastyouth.com/?p=4882#comment-23491 I am still trying to learn something and still cannot accept not to see a person's face, it is how I have survivived all my life, a quick instinct about somebody, I am sure I have avoided some terrible situations and am still alive to tell the tale because I could judge somebody by their face, a face does not lie, and I need to see it. Its a deeply existential question which I do not answer lightly, I am trying to get my head around this just as I am trying to get my head around making a sharia law which says a woman must stay at home until her husband gives her permission to go out, that she must submit to sex or be punished etcetera. Unacceptable, we can make cultural and religious rules for ourselves just as the taliban do, and I cannot give up my precious freedoms for anybody so yes, the battle continues whether I can accept wholeheartedly every cultural difference I am presented with. So far, not. On a demonstration in Trafalgar Square for Palestine I wore a scarf, to see how it would be as I approached others, and I was attacked verbally, by my own countrymen, (angered that somebody who was obviously not arabic and who looked English was wearing a scarf!)I saw it first hand - so I see what women with headscarves have to put up with but it is changing here in the UK as more and more teenagers openly wear scarves all the time. I am still trying to learn something and still cannot accept not to see a person’s face, it is how I have survivived all my life, a quick instinct about somebody, I am sure I have avoided some terrible situations and am still alive to tell the tale because I could judge somebody by their face, a face does not lie, and I need to see it. Its a deeply existential question which I do not answer lightly, I am trying to get my head around this just as I am trying to get my head around making a sharia law which says a woman must stay at home until her husband gives her permission to go out, that she must submit to sex or be punished etcetera. Unacceptable, we can make cultural and religious rules for ourselves just as the taliban do, and I cannot give up my precious freedoms for anybody so yes, the battle continues whether I can accept wholeheartedly every cultural difference I am presented with. So far, not. On a demonstration in Trafalgar Square for Palestine I wore a scarf, to see how it would be as I approached others, and I was attacked verbally, by my own countrymen, (angered that somebody who was obviously not arabic and who looked English was wearing a scarf!)I saw it first hand – so I see what women with headscarves have to put up with but it is changing here in the UK as more and more teenagers openly wear scarves all the time.

]]> By: Mandy B. (United States) http://www.mideastyouth.com/2009/08/12/burqini-troubles/#comment-23490 Mandy B. (United States) Sat, 15 Aug 2009 18:04:45 +0000 http://www.mideastyouth.com/?p=4882#comment-23490 Thank you so much Sarah for such an eloquent piece. The picture you painted poignantly describes an example of a woman feeling discriminated against by a man in power. Regardless of whether the intent of the swimming pool supervisor was to follow a sanitation rule or to discriminate against a Muslim, it serves to bring attention to the intense cultural world war we all live in. I wish I could articulate like you do how I feel about these issues. I have the passion, but not always the words. I agree with whomever said we are all oppressed, and we are all oppressors. Of course, it's what we do to end oppression that really matters and putting yourself out here to have a conversation like this is the kind of thing that will eventually change the world. I think Daniel and Jessica make some really good points. I don’t know anything about the rules about swimming garments in France. I do know that when living in a culture where the dominant group disrespects individual, private, moral and ethical choices, most behavior is and will be interpreted as oppressive. I wish I knew of a place where that didn’t happen. I can understand why westerners are uncomfortable with the sight of a woman in a burqa. The first time I saw a woman in a burqa, walking behind her husband and children on the street in San Francisco, I completely turned myself around in the passenger seat of the car I was riding in. As a feminist all of my sensors went up and I felt concern for this woman. But of course this was my ignorance. Just as I believe every woman should have the choice to do or be whatever she wants, so should every woman have the choice to wear a burqa. For Muslim woman who do not want to wear a burqa, but perhaps are forced to by the men in her life, there would be no liberation by a rule or law, set by President Sarkozy or the swimming pool supervisor if they banned it. Liberation can only come when one is free to make the choice for herself. Thank you so much Sarah for such an eloquent piece. The picture you painted poignantly describes an example of a woman feeling discriminated against by a man in power. Regardless of whether the intent of the swimming pool supervisor was to follow a sanitation rule or to discriminate against a Muslim, it serves to bring attention to the intense cultural world war we all live in.

I wish I could articulate like you do how I feel about these issues. I have the passion, but not always the words. I agree with whomever said we are all oppressed, and we are all oppressors. Of course, it’s what we do to end oppression that really matters and putting yourself out here to have a conversation like this is the kind of thing that will eventually change the world.

I think Daniel and Jessica make some really good points. I don’t know anything about the rules about swimming garments in France. I do know that when living in a culture where the dominant group disrespects individual, private, moral and ethical choices, most behavior is and will be interpreted as oppressive. I wish I knew of a place where that didn’t happen.

I can understand why westerners are uncomfortable with the sight of a woman in a burqa. The first time I saw a woman in a burqa, walking behind her husband and children on the street in San Francisco, I completely turned myself around in the passenger seat of the car I was riding in. As a feminist all of my sensors went up and I felt concern for this woman. But of course this was my ignorance. Just as I believe every woman should have the choice to do or be whatever she wants, so should every woman have the choice to wear a burqa. For Muslim woman who do not want to wear a burqa, but perhaps are forced to by the men in her life, there would be no liberation by a rule or law, set by President Sarkozy or the swimming pool supervisor if they banned it. Liberation can only come when one is free to make the choice for herself.

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