Israel: Inherently Evil or Misunderstood?
I think a lot of the distrust and hatred in the Middle East stems from misunderstandings. This might sound naïve, because the conflict has religious, historical, ethnic and security dimensions, which can’t be resolved by sheer understanding of the other side. After all, the negotiators of all sides in the “peace process” understand each other well, they’ve spent years talking to each other, yet agreement seems to elude them. Nevertheless, I think that understanding the point of view of the other people (without accepting it as the truth) can be helpful in bringing Israelis and Arabs closer. Below, I’ll try to shed light on some salient features in the Israeli Jewish “mainstream” narrative.
Israel’s collective memory has been most influenced by the history of the persecution of the Jews outside the land of Israel, which culminated in the Holocaust. Most Israelis have family members who perished in the Holocaust, and while the Holocaust is no longer a living memory to most people, the Israeli education system devotes a lot of time to teaching the younger generations about the tragedy. Although Jews all around the world remember the Holocaust, the Zionist thinking added to this a solution for preventing future persecution of Jews, and that is the creation of an independent Jewish state.
Whether the readers disagree with this or not, the vast majority of Israelis believe that Israel was attacked in 1948 and 1973, and was about to be attacked in 1967, and therefore acted in self-defense. The 1967 War and subsequent occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip resulted in a split in Israeli society, and some stopped seeing Israel’s policies as legitimate. Still, despite Israel’s astounding victory in the Six Day War Still, the sense of insecurity persisted among Israelis, due to the refusal of Israel’s neighbors to recognize it. This sense of insecurity has caused Israel, I think, to overreact at times, and see any threat as possibly fatal to the existence of the state itself. Most Israeli continue to see their state as one that constantly has to act militarily in self-defense against its enemies, whether far away (the attack on the Osirak reactor in Iraq in 1981) or near (Palestinian terrorism).
Due to this feeling of insecurity, the army in Israel is not only admired but also much liked (what some like to call the “militarization” of Israeli society). I remember how on buses, when I used to walk with my M-16 rifle and accidentally hit people, they would turn around angry, but when they noticed that I was a soldier, they would smile and offer me a place to sit. In a country where army service is compulsory (except for Arab Israelis and ultra-Orthodox Jews), dodging the draft is perceived as a disgrace in most circles. Israelis are proud of their army, and its strength is a source of comfort for people who are feeling constantly under attack.
I understand that this sounds preposterous to many who view Israel as an aggressive country by birth, and not one fighting for its survival. But the fact is that the persecution of Jews throughout history and the numerous wars Israel was involved in, convinced Israelis that Jews need their own country and a strong army to protect it. What I’m trying to show is that Israel isn’t inherently evil, but that our understanding of history and its lessons is very different from our Arab neighbors. I think that while accepting the fact that our understanding of reality is different, and that no side can impose its views on the other, we should seek common ground and work to disprove radical views on both sides. Hopefully, with more understanding among the Israeli and Arab people, we will be able to reach peace and maintain it.
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It’s only the Arabs who believe that Israeli is threat to the region’s order but also
However,
this is not a matter of understanding or studying the other, it’s the reality that Israel has been established over the devastation of other people and keeps suppressing it and wages wars every couple of years ro inflict more and more devastation and unforgettable pain.
If somebody comes and occupy your home and kick you out Mrs. Elizabeth, would you say: “Ah! wait a minute, maybe he’s right in his alligation and I deserve to be tortures and stepped on”? This is the way we see Israel, not only us but most of the people on the world would think so if got the clear picture of what happened !!
Why? Why should I pay for what the Nazi did? Why? Why should the jewish people act (as zionists) the same crime the nazi inflicted and apply them against us?
It’s bot only the palestinians who think that Israel is the devil himself but also most of the “free” world as the BBC poll shows:
What does this tell you Mrs. Elizabeth? Is it a matter of understanding or a reality of the most brutal occupation that uses the most fatal and banned weapons against civilians? This is the image and reality of Israel and no cosmetics would makeup the smeared and ugly face!!!
Sami, the bedouin.
It’s difficult to escape the conclusion that powerful people in Israel intend to keep settling the West Bank and East Jerusalem and that until such time as they have achieved whatever the extent of those goals is, Israeli politicians will continue to alarm Jewish Israelis with talk of existential threats to shore up support for the heavy militarization of the society and the punitive actions caried out by that military as a protective umbrella for the continuing settlement enterprise.
Israel, as a society with many competing narratives, needs to decide how much more land it wants. The curent state of Israel, like many others in the world, was achieved by force. It is recognised internationally as far as the 1967 borders. Offers of full normalisation with the Arab world have been on the table since 2002. One has to accept, I think, that continued settling/dispossession will come at a heavy cost to Israel’s image, particularly among those who feel kinship with the Palestinians.
I’m with Avraham Burg on this one – I think Jewish Israelis need to throw off the comfort blanket of the “existential threat” and push for agreement, in terms of land rather than concepts like “peace”, on exactly what they want.
To read more about the motives behind the conflict, read my detailed answers here:
http://www.mideastyouth.com/2009/08/30/were-palestinians-originally-jewish/
I agree generally with your analysis of the Israeli narrative, even though there are divergent views within Israel itself.
And probably, with more understanding of each side’s history, and intentions, this would help to move forward on peace.
However, I don’t think that understanding is really the missing link here. We can understand each other until doomsday, but there will still be competing narratives, and contradictory agendas.
Rather than relying solely on understanding one another, what we should focus on is “self-interest.” In my opinion, you will have peace when enough people on both sides decide that peace is in their best interest. In other words, “We may see our past differently, but we have reasons to come together at present.”
An example of this would be the clash between Hamas and Fatah. People elected Hamas because they were fed up with certain aspects of Fatah, such as corruption and incompetence and the like. So Fatah has to ask itself, what will it take for us to consolidate political power? True, we need to shore up our security forces. But just as much, we have to convince people that we can offer them a better life, as opposed to Hamas. And that means good paying jobs, and a revitalized economy.
Israel should understand this dynamic, and do what it can to help Fatah to improve the lives of the people. If you start eliminating the checkpoints, you allow the economy in the West Bank to flourish. And indeed, a lot of the checkpoints were eliminated, and under the leadership of Prime Mininister Fayaad, the West Bank is experiencing an economic boom to the tune of a 7% annual growth rate.
But Israel could do a lot more than just eliminating checkpoints. Israel could be involved in providing educational enrichment on science to young Palestinian children. Israel could collaborate with Palestinian scientists on protecting the environment. Israel could facilitate in countless ways the emergence of Palestinian businesses and industry.
In short, Israel could develop policies that further convince Palestinians that it is in their self interest to support the efforts of moderate Palestinian leaders. As economic growth takes place in the West Bank, the people in Gaza will probably say, “Hey, where is our share?” They are in a position to sqeeze Hamas a lot better than we can. When we sqeeze Hamas we make martyrs out of them. Martyrdom sells big over there. But when their own people sqeeze them, then that’s a horse of a different color.
After a while, even Hamas may get into the business of job creation as a legitimate way of consolidating political control. And then you will have Hamas and Fatah vying for power using legitimate means like creating good paying green jobs. That kind of thinking is what brought peace to Ireland, and what convinced the IRA to use other means to consolidate political power. I actually met George Mitchell, who made that happen.
So I say, focus on self-interest, and make sure that your policies are geared toward promoting the self-interest of each player, and making sure that everyone’s calculations move him a little bit closer to peace.
lo lismokh ‘al nissim
I wonder what Mordecai Vanunu would say to that
Sami, what you consider as facts (“Israel has been established over the devastation of other people and keeps suppressing it and wages wars every couple of years ro inflict more and more devastation and unforgettable pain”), most Israelis don’t. As I’ve explained, we tend to think that we’re acting in self-defense. During the 1948 war, Israelis didn’t attack first, and therefore they don’t think that they “devastated another nation” to establish a home for themselves. We don’t think that the Palestinians are “paying” for what the Nazis did. We think that we returned to our historical homeland, and when attacked, reacted and caused thousands of Palestinians to flee. I will never accept you view of history and reality, for that matter (“Israel… uses the most fatal and banned weapons against civilian”), but I can try to understand your views, and you can try to understand mine. Both sides see themselves as the victim and that they shouldn’t bother to understand the aggressor. If we continue sticking to our point of view, peace won’t come.
Tom, I agree with you that the argument of existential threats has been used as an excuse to attack others with little regard for human life. The main problem Israelis have with the Saudi Initiative is that it implicitly calls for the “right of return”. Attempts made by Jordan last year to change the language in a way that would be more acceptable to Israel have failed.
Nissim, the idea of economic peace allured me too. However, as we see from the recent growth in the West Bank, it has not changed many perceptions about Israel, which is still seen as a brutal occupier. By focusing on economic issues (“self-interest”) alone, we are opening ourselves (and Fatah) for accusations of trying to “bribe” the Palestinians out of having a state of their own. I’m not saying that just increasing understanding will do the trick, but it is what this particular platform offers (meaning, I can’t help create “green” jobs for Palestinians using MEY). I’m all for increasing economic ties and prosperity for Palestinians, but it needs to be coupled with political steps (negotiations) and with clear, public gestures that show the other side that we are interested in peace (such as stopping incitement in Palestinian media and schools, total settlement freeze, very harsh punishments for soldiers who abuse Palestinians).
The need for better understanding of the other side is evident: the peace agreement that we can reach right now (with pressure from the US) won’t eliminate resentment. When there’s resentment, mistreatment of Palestinians (on border checkpoints, getting licenses to work in Israel, etc.) will continue, and probably so will terror attacks and military incursions, thus proving the point of the radical elements that peace isn’t possible. The negotiations are mainly a political issue and will be solved by politicians (we can help by pressuring politicians in the right direction). What regular people like you and I can do, is to try and encourage understanding within our own society. Again, I’m not bashing your efforts in the economic field, but they’re not enough.
Mr. Qazi,
Here is waht Mr. Vanunu says about Simon Peres (the israeli “peace” dove in his letter to Nobel Peace Prize Committee. I just wonder what he would say of Netanyaho and Leiberman???
I don’t understand how this has anything to do with Vaanunu. Either way, he’s a traitor who did jail time for betraying his country. Palestinians who are even suspected of cooperating with Israel are hanged. Our traitor, on the other hand, did his jail time and now he’s free.
I wonder, had it been the other way around, meaning if the Palestinians came and took over the land, made the jews flee and took over their properties and belongings, how the situation would have been? I pose this question to you, Elizabeth. How would you react, if your ancesters land was confiscated, their homes taken away and they were driven away, far away no never come back again? What would have crossed your mind had you seen the sttlements spreading all over the place and the west bank started to look like swiss cheese? What would you reasoning be, if palestinians come and invite you to talk peace while they are taking over your land at the same time? Would have sat down with them and said , well, lets understand their view? and lest assume that you did not understand their view, what would you then do when they are still pushing gaza to the bring of the worst disaster? You see Elizabeth, it is always easy for the one that has the upper hand to suggest ideas and try to pass as the peace maker while in fact, and the whole world knows it, they are not looking for the peace. Lets say it frankly, Israel would have loved it, if not one single Arab stayed in Palestine. I think the idea to sit and try to understand eachother is a false one, it was tried many times in the past and it always failed…Why? look at the rate of how settlements are being built, look at how many Palestinians were killed, look at how many families were destroyed and with them went their hope. How can these people sit and “try” to understand Israel , there’s nothing to understand in my view; the proof is in the pudding as they say.
Yes, that is what I admire about the justice system in Am Yisrael, they did not even spare the prime minister.
@Qazi: Olmert is a corrupt thief, why should he be spared? Hopefully our corrupt foreign minister Lieberman will have the same fate.
Long live the freedom to criticize corrupt rulers. Did you know that by law, I cannot criticize the president of Pakistan through email or the internet. If I do then they send me to jail. I would like to write more but I cant, under threat of imprisonment. No joke, there is a real law in Pakistan like this, recently enacted.
Why dont you raise your voice Mr Qazi?
I was six times in jail and for long years, I was questioned two times by the PA and even still they bug me… but still I breathe my free mind and fight occupation and corruption !!
Probably you are “academician” and not for fighting !! but I tell you, freedom is taken but never given for free!!!
There used to be times when any Palestinian raise or have a Palestinian flag was sentenced to 8 months to a year, but the people were fighting this until Israeli realized that this people cant be enslaved and they run away from Gaza…. still there is a long way to fight and get free and Israeli will not feel secure as long as we are occupied and humiliated !!!
Sight for your voice to be heard and you will not take it for free Mr. Qazi
Sami, the bedouin.
Well, at least a good thing I see among the Palestinian people as well as the Yehudim is courage, sometimes that courage may be misdirected, sometime in the right direction, no wonder recent genetic studies found much in common in the blood of the 2 people. It is like haabil kabeel, kane and abel, two brothers fighting over a single object, only G-d knows who is right, but either one not willing to back down due to pride or faith.
Well put, Qazi.
I don;t want to get into a long thread about Israel. As I understand it, the right of return can be finessed – Palestinians don;t want to give up the RIGHT of return, which as we all know is a fundamental right of all UN-recognised refugees, but are also willing not actually to return. A symbolic few thousand could go back but nothing that would upset the fundamental demographics of the Jewish state. It’s my view that the Arab peace plan represents a worrisome threat to the planned Israeli narrative to the world of Israelis wanting peace but the Palestinians never missing an opportunity to miss an opportunity. Thus, from the Israeli point of view, in order to be able to continue to impose a unilateral vision of how things should end up – and it is not a vision that has officially been shared with the rest of the world – it has been imperative to find a reason not to accept the Arab Peace Plan, which as a plan seemed to me to be pretty reasonable. I think it comes down to land.
Modechai Vanunu is no longer in prison, but he is not allowed to travel outside of Israel (and the West Bank).
Elizabth, you say you want to understand other people’s views, but you also say you will “never accept their view of history and reality” and that Israel is the Jews’ “historical homeland”. It would seem from that that there is a limit to how far you, as an Israeli Jew, can go in terms of understanding a Palestinian narrative. Do you think that what you can do is enough to help bring about an end to the conflict? The same question must apply to Palestinians.
One thing – I don;t think the “existential threat” has been used as an excuse to attack others with little regard for human life, although Israel has indeed done that in the context of the occupation and various conflict situations. I think the “existential threat” has been used in order to be able to pursue the settlement enterprise.
I’m critical of Israel because it is continuing to throw Palestinians out of their homes and colonise land. I don’t see what justification there can be for that, unless it’s a justification based on the idea of a “historical homeland” in a state with a “Jewish and democratic character”, which in that case does not allow much room for even-handed political compromise. The weakness of my perspective is of course that this process has been going on for many years and if the international community is willing to recognise Israel in the 1967 borders now, then who knows where they might be willing to recognise Israel in another 60 years time? I think the 1967 borders and a shared Jerusalem would have been a reasonable solution, but it will be rather difficult given the settlements that have been created in and around Jerusalem and in the West Bank.
I would be interested to ask Elizabeth where she thinks the final borders of Israel should be?
As I talk in detail at this article you will see that the rabbinate is repeating history, the ten tribes are being returned to their original lands, it is possible that lebanon and syria will be annexed, as in those days this was bni Israel territory. The map will become as it was 2500 years ago before Assyrian invasion of 736 bc.
These things must happen before moshiach returns. Since the american evangelical christians are bankrolling this effort, they are set to gain too, they believe the Jewish moshiach and Jesus are one and the same.
Thanks Qazi,
sometimes I feel you are unpredictable, and this what I like about your way of thinking. You add new and unexpected ideas that give me a horizon to thin of. But just a small note:
does history goes backward or forward? An this what is killing about the zionist ideology. At the time they are very tricky and clever in handling the political situation and know how to use the power of their lobbies penetrating the government everywhere including the Arab ones, they are still stuck to their mentality of Moses and the “chosen” people !!
So, is it a new strategy to convert the Palestinians to jews as they fee an increasing shortage in their “human resources”? as the international jewry are getting less and less or indifferent to israel or anti-zionist, at the time the Palestinians are getting more and more? This what there “genetic” projects are heading to, not only Jewidizing the place (Palestine of Canaan) but also the major obstacle which is the lively and generative people !!! The coming days or years are going to reveal more and more not only of this genius “genetic” project, but also the organs harvesting as the facts are coming consecutively!!
Sami, the bedouin.
Maher,
I understand what you’re saying, but again, this is the point of view of the Palestinians. Israeli see themselves as victims too. I don’t see what alternative you suggest. If peace isn’t the way, what is? The vaunted “resistance” has failed. The intifada destroyed the Palestinian economy. Palestinian suffering is only increasing. It’s clear that this way doesn’t achieve anything.
Many Israelis, too, think that peace talks are pointless. They think that we’re constantly under attack by people who are unwilling to acknowledge our right to a homeland. That there’s no point in talking to them because they don’t want peace, and all we can do is make our military stronger, attack harder, separate ourselves from them, and build more settlements, because all they [Arabs] understand is power.
I’m trying to say that both sides need to take responsibility and make serious efforts to get out of this mess. Otherwise, the bloodshed and misery will go on and on.
Tom S,
. Anyways, I think it should be based on the 1967 border. Because of all the settlement blocks, it’s hard too go back to them exactly (evacuation will be very costly). What I think would be good, in return, is a very wide passage between the West Bank and Gaza Strip, and it addition fertile land next to Gaza strip or the West Bank. Also, the division of Jerusalem (I think the Clinton Parameters are bearable, in that regard), and accepting a small number of refugees (few thousands). With regards to compensations for the refugees, the lost property of Arab Jews who fled their countries after 1948 should also be put into account. My views of the final settlement, though, aren’t accepted by most Israelis and considered “left wing” because of the willingness to divide Jerusalem (only 34% of Israelis agree to that).
Israelis that I know don’t object to the Saudi Initiative because it “represents a worrisome threat” to the Israeli narrative, it’s because there are points in it that are unacceptable. You might say that a symbolic number of refugees can be the solution, but the fact is that it was offered in Camp David (2000), Taba (2001), and by Olmert last year, and the Palestinian negotiators rejected that. If you look at recent polls, most Palestinians (60.7%, to be exact), oppose the settlement of refugees that the Saudi Plan offers. (Q 51-4)
Of course there is a limit to how much my views can be changed by what the other side thinks. I can’t accept the Palestinian narrative, but what I was trying to get across is that I don’t have to. The Palestinians also don’t need to agree with our narrative, they just need to understand that this is how we think. If we understand each other better, it’s easier to reach compromise despite the differences because we see the sensitivities, what’s important to the other side, etc. There’s not point in waiting for most Israeli Jews to become like Vaanunu (agreeing with the other narrative), because it will never happen. We need to play with the card we’re dealt. I think peace is within reach without agreeing with the other side, understanding of the other side is enough. The problem is with people who refuse to even understand the other side. When someone accuses Israelis of being Nazis, that shows complete disregard for their sensitivities. When someone says “Jerusalem is the eternal, undivided capital of the Jews”, it shows insensitivity for the Palestinian view of history.
I don’t think you should worry about the world community accepting any other borders other than 1967. It has been established in numerous UN Security Council resolutions.
There’s a difference between what I want the borders to be and what I can accept. I might want a Mercedes Benz, but will settle for a Reno
Elizabeth – I certainly have to agree that more understanding for how the other side feels and why would be a good thing.
The Olmert piece you cite, the former Israeli PM is asking the Palestinians to give up the right of return. I think most Palestinian refugees basically accept that they will never move to the places that they or their families lived in before whichever conflict led to their leaving those homes – but they don;t want to give up the actual right itself. It’s something that will have to be delicately finessed.
I think your view of a final border for Israel seems pretty sensible. It doesn;t actually appear to be terribly far from the Arab Peace Initiative as detailed here http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1844214.stm Oddly enough, the same poll you cite seems to suggest that 68% of Palestinians are against having E Jerusalem as a capital of a fuure Palestinian state. I don;t think I misread it.
Meanwhile, Netanyahu is approving more West Bank settlement construction http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112560095&ft=1&f=1001 The NPR piece claims he is doing so to shore up the right-wing element of his coalition. Perhaps reform of the Israeli voting system might be in order to reduce the influence of smaller more extreme parties that end up having the ability to act as kingmakers and to demand concessions as a result.
In a democracy, when the minority controls the majority, its only because of the money. It seems the “right-wing elements” have their pockets full of international tzedekah donations from well wishers. As the saying goes, follow the money trail, and you will find the real leaders of your democracy. It is they who should be on the negotiation table, and not the “peaceniks or hawks” that we keep seeing each year. Or is it a catch-22 situation, their financial backers dont want them to negotiate until sufficient territory in under control, and that later point in time an amnesty can be declared, saying, you keep your land we will keep ours, for recognition purposes and normalization of diplomatic relations.
I know your politics are just that, they are your politics and your decisions, but your people have been meddling into other countries politics for so long that the tables have turned, most countries of the world are now directly meddling in your countries politics, not because they want to, but because they have no other option, all roads lead to Tel Aviv, sometimes the bush doctrine of “pre-emptive” action is required to safeguard your own country, the countries of the world are battling it out in Israels political system, funding all kinds of minority groups, because if they do not do so, they risk Israel meddling into their political systems. So what came first, the chicken or the egg.
Sheema Yisrael, Sheema…..
I really do agree with Sami. I mean we all “understand” this whole story with having a “homeland” but under what circumstances is it fair that the land is chosen at random? why Palestine? i get the homeland thing but where does it say that this homeland is Palestine? I mean ok maybe the Jews were promised a state of their own but that doesnt mean to take another’s freedom away!
What i also dont get is that, if Palestine was really the “promised” land; wouldnt the Jews be living happily ever after with no war? i mean its been more than sixty years; clearly its not meant to be! How long is this going to continue happening? there is nothing to understand. the Israeli’s are the ones who should understand not the other way around. This land has been created for people. Like the Jews want a state of thier own, so do we. where is the confusion?
It is utterly ubsurd that more than i dont even wanna know how many died because they dont want to leave thier homes! Children are dying from birth because apparently they are not on the right piece of land. HUH? someone help me understand that. ok the Holocaust; i respect that; but would like to compare how many died in the holocaust and how many have died since the beginning of this war? if a million died in the holocaust; a trillion Palestinians were killed by the Israelis. We all see how powerful the Israeli army is but i mean come on; so is ever other country’s army. The Palestinians can even have a better army but their money is just being stolen (god knows from whom) and so they cant even afford rice to buy rifles. Israeli’s are getting support from so many other countries that even Darfour would have been as powerful with all the money and support.
And again, why do we have to pay for those who were just brought onto the earth without a land? i dont get it! its so simple yet so complicated. Did you know that more than half the soldiers in Palestine dont even know what they are doing there; they’ve been completely hypnotised to beleive what they want them to beleive. And no, there is no such thing as sharing. how would you feel if someone came into your house claiming that he had a bad childhood, was abused and now he has the right to have a home and invades yours? its either he shoots your whole family or you leave? or how bout he gets the top floor with the 4 bedroom and you ket downstairs where the kitchen lies. again, explain!
Its known as the evil itself because of the horrific things it has done to so many people over the amount of sixty years! 60! till when? what, are they trying to wipe out a whole race? is that even “understandable”?! As much as you want to defend the Israelis, im sorry; but there is nothing that can explain soldeirs shooting five children infront of their own mother and father right then and there; or beating a child to death; or even burning someone alive. That is not the way to get anything in life but clearly the Israeli’s are not smart enough to realize that its not gonna end this way. Ofcourse hatred has come upon them; they’ve taken something that is not thiers and continue to fight the people who live there.
So many people died, there was a billion wars; so the Holocaust is just one of them and that shouldnt even be considered an excuse for such brutality, cruelty, and inhumnaity.
Tom,
The approval of the 400+ units in the West Bank is to appease right-wingers inside the Likud party, not other extremist parties. Therefore, reforming the electoral system won’t help.
You didn’t misread the poll, Palestinians are unwilling to recognize any Israeli sovereignty over Jerusalem. They want it undivided – just theirs.
Ayah,
Your reply shows dangerous ignorance (“ok the Holocaust; i respect that; but would like to compare how many died in the holocaust and how many have died since the beginning of this war? if a million died in the holocaust; a trillion Palestinians were killed by the Israelis.”), a disregard for facts (“soldeirs shooting five children infront of their own mother and father right then and there; or beating a child to death; or even burning someone alive.”) and a total inability and desire to see the other side. I have no interest in explaining myself to someone like you.
hah “ignorance”? well my dear; its the truth itself speaking right at you! It seems like someone never turns on the news channel. Im talking about Gaza, and yes these things did happen! for your infromation; i had the honorable chance to meet these people in specific since they were to brought to Saudi Arabia to be treated. I met them; they spoke. Read the newspapers love; its all there. dont let these things blind you. What? you dont beleive these things are happening? lol your missing on quite alot out there.
I was giving you a rough estimate “ms.im not ignorant”. YES, its triple the amount of people who died in your Holocaust. and did you read; it said “IF a million..” clearly they arent the right facts. and truthfully, i dont even want to bother to find out the real numbers because i would love to see your reaction when everyday your people just disappear?
Please, “the other side”? what side? the side that just wants to get rid of a whole human population because according to their “book”, its their land? ya right we’re gonna fight back! what do u expect? to just hand things to Israeli’s with a smiling face hoping they’d enjoy it? well guess what? not happening!
and clearly, you also fail to see the Palestinian side of the story. According to the Balfour Declaration, the land was supposed to be divided in ROUGHLY again (mind me if i miss 0.1%) half between the two. But no, it wasnt enough for the Israeli’s; so they just attacked the whole thing until we were left with a piece of cloth. and then they claim that we have the west bank? that makes me laugh; even in the west bank, in order to go anywhere you are treated like an animal.
I went to Palestine this summer; and i all i saw was where everything “used” to be. How would you feel if you went back home and remembered how your mother “used” to be because some Muslim killed her? aw wouldnt you just want to “understand” his point of view?
and talking about ignorance; there is nothing more ignorant than the fact you’re using the Holocaust as an excuse; i mean seriously; come on! its not the first and last time that people died.
Ayah, so from what i read from you you don’t beleive the holocaust happened. you assume a million jews were killed in the holocaust and you don’t bother to find out the numbers because you think that the israelis must have killed even more. i’m german and i live in germany and this kind of thinking is unbelievable for me. so i am german, therefore from the nation that is accused of this horrible crime, and i wish, as a human, that i wouldn’t have to believe that my grandfathers committed such a horrible thing, but guess what, they did. that’s what my people did, they did commit this horrible, horrible crime. if you don’t belive me, come over and i will show you. we miss so many people here that didn’t leave a trace, come over if you don’t believe me and i will show you and hey, i did talk to the people who committed this.
read the newspapers, love.
Thank you so much, Mina, for you support on this important and sensitive issue. Sometimes, ignorance is funny, but in this case, I think it’s quite dangerous.
Mina,
As living the second Holocaust since over sixty years, I can understand your frustration and and sorrow tone you speak with.
First, it’s not only the jews who lost so much lives in WW2. The USSR lost over 20 million lives of free fighters and you, the German, lost 18 millions as complete cities were bombed tobe carpet like Dresden.
Second, why we, the Palestinians have to pay the price of a crime that was committed my YOU, the German, and to live in horror aunder occupation for over 60 years. I was born under occupation and daily face all kind of calamities !!!
Third, a people that was enslaved and killed cant commit the same crime to other people !!!
I see the Holocaust here dear… if you dont believe it come and I will show you it happening now… read the newspapers to see… What is going on in Gaza other than a new Nazi concentration camp? Love
Sami, the bedouin.
@ Elizabeth – the kind of ignorance that is presented here leaves me more or less speechless.
(trying to find my voice)
@ dear Mr. Sami: You’re comparing yourself to jews living in nazi germany (“as living the second holocaust over sixty years”). interesting comparision. leaves me dumbfounded.
what are you trying to say?
Then, what are you trying to compare. – so, you germans lost 18 millions, the russians lost 20 millions, oh, only an imbalance of two millions, well, not such a big deal – or how am i supposed to understand this?? this is disrepectful.
what are you trying to say here? this comparision leaves me speechless, humiliated, don’t put my relatives into your equasions – don’t put anyone’s relatives into these calculations, that’s disgraceful.
AND i’m not sure you noticed that, my dear mr. sami, but are you really, seriously trying to say that i committed the holocaust? (“why we, the palestinians have to pay the price of a crime that was committed by YOU. the German”) interesting you consider someone responsible for that when she was born about 40 years after the crime was committed.
Good night, this is just too much for me.
Here we are: Gideon Levy piece in Haaretz says what I wanted to say much more clearly – and that was to ask what it is exactly that Israel wants from the occupation.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1114138.html
He suggests a referendum: “Do we continue the occupation, all of the occupation, yes or no? If yes, then yes, if no, then no. But let’s decide what it is that we want.”
Levy is absolutely right to put his finger on this – to the observer it is unfathomable from Israel’s actual actions what the country is actually aiming for. The title of this debate – “Israel: inherently evil or misunderstood” – is as dreadful as the pathetic “debates” that periodically appear in Western media about whether Islam is an “evil” religion. But the confusion over what Israel is trying to do is real – to some Israelis as well, judging by what Mr Levy writes.
This is a thread about Israel, but clearly the Palestinians are also somewhat confused about what they want, beyond concepts such as “peace”, “justice” and so on. Hamas in Gaza, Fatah in the WB and, according to the poll cited above, 49% of Palestinians accepting and 49% rejecting a mutual recognition of Israel as the state for the Jewish people and Palestine as the state for Palestinian people after all issues of the conflict have been resolved.
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Mina,
Now I got your point!!
No, I am not comparing the deaths nor trying to underestimate the loss of lives the WW2 did cost. I say there are many, many millions lost their lives in that disaster, the Germans lost 18 millions and the Russian lost 20 millions and a lot of other people lost also many millions… Why dont we remember all these people who lost their lives in vain? Why dont we talk of the Russians and the brave resistance of the Polish and the others? Why should we reduce the whole of WW2 for a few jews killed to justify annihilating the Palestinians who had and have nothing to do with the Nazis? The Holocaust is used by the zionists to justify their nazist crimes against us, and I wont buy their propaganda and will create my own discourse, my own HOLOCAUST which I live daily of segregation, concentration camps, thousands of prisoners, killing, burning the fields, demolishing the houses, testing banned weapons on civilians… and all war crimes that you might or might not think of !!!
Just to give you another example of how the jews use their victims to draw effections and deceive the whole world: While the zionists imprison over 11,000 Palestinians, they use all the world to spotlight only one soldier kidnapped !!! Why the whole world talks of Shalit but no one is mentioning a world about our 11,000 prisoners???
Sami, the bedopuin.
Sami, you are a real piece of work.
“A few Jews killed”? Six millions, including 1.5 of them children is not “a few”! “Annihilating the Palestinians”? If we wanted the Palestinians annihilated, you’d be dead right now, not typing away on your keyboard. You can say oppression, brutality, even “apartheid”, but annihilation? Sometimes I wish that those comparing the Holocaust to what’s happening in the Palestinian territories would spend just a day in a Jewish ghetto. Then they would see that their lives maybe hard and unfair, but there is no basis, whatsoever, to compare it to the Holocaust. Half my family starved to death in Poland. Others were annihilated in Majdanek, an extermination camp. My grandmother witnessed cannibalism in the sieged Leningrad. How can you say you live in your own daily Holocaust? You were never so hungry that you started eating the cooked leather off of couches or tree bark, like my family did. You’re not stripped of every possession you have ever had and sent to the gas chambers. Do you not understand that such statements from you, or any other Palestinian are convincing us that there is no partner? This only prolongs the occupation, we will continue oppressing you, building more houses on your land, jailing more people, creating more resentment. You can not win with terrorism, we’ve crushed that. You can continue living in the delusion of having a state on all the territory of Palestine, but I think it’s time to wake up. It’s time to stop complaining that you’re “living in a daily Holocaust” and start thinking about how this conflict can be solved, asap.
I’d like to draw everyone’s attention to an interview Ahmadinejad gave yesterday to AP. He repeats the arguments made by Sami almost verbatim.
A few questions, Sami. How many Russians do you think lived at the time of World War II? How many Germans do you think there were? And how many Jews? How many Poles? How many of the Germans, Poles or Russians do you think were Jewish? Have you thought about the fact that their dead might be counted in the number of how many citizens of a country were killed?
@ Elizabeth: Thank you for sharing this comment.
OK Mina,
First, the jews has lost a lot of lives but in no way the extravagantly exaggerated number, and not in the ways their imagination created of gas chambers (and making soap of their oil) and the stuff of the created lies !!!
second, no people in the world (even the black Africans who lost 200 millions) turned their suffering into a myth to worship and live on!!! (the Rawandans lost 10 millions in the past ten years) and nobody is talking but about the “poor” jews (most of whom are not but criminal zionists for me)
Third, the suffering of the jews doesnt give them the right to oppress other peaceful people living on their land and use the same nazi mentality to re-commit the nazi atrocities !!
Fourth, the alleged and exaggerated “holocaust” is used to silence anyone who dares to criticize the atrocious Israel !!!
Now, the whole world is begging the zionist just to freeze the settlement but not to stop torturing the native Palestinians… and they don’t listen to anybody but going on in annihilation the Palestinians… who shall we blame? Shall I repeat the joke my jewish friend this weekend when we were hiking: “You, Palestinians, should blame Hitler for not finishing the job”? I wont say this but I cant believe the zionist version of the “holocaust”…. I have my own daily HOLOCAUST i live in !!
Sami, the bedouin.
Reading all of these comments makes me extremely upset. I wish and pray everyday that this turmoil will get settled. I am Jewish, but I do not agree totally with what Israel is doing. I do, however, feel that the Jews deserve a state, but so do the Palestinians. Reading all of these comments just breaks my hope that something can be done about this. People (both Jews and Palestinians) are too engrained with these beliefs of hatred. If we want peace and understanding, then we have to understand both sides.
Shalom, Peace, Salaam
Sami,
first, the Jews lost 6 million. I don’t know how many Jews there were before 1933, but probably not more tan 30 million (if at all). So that’s an incredibly high percentage.
second, how do you know?
AND you do know that Rwanda does not even have 10 million inhabitants. Just for your information. Don’t you notice that you only use numbers (or invent numbers) that suit you?! What’s your point here?!
Third, of course you are not allowed to commit injustices and blame it on an injustice that happened to you. But do you think there would be no Israel without the Holocaust? You talk about Balfour etc., so what do you think would have happened? Maybe if there hadn’t been a 2nd World War the British would have remained strong and a world power and would still be there instead of having left in 1948 (and it wasn’t the only colony they had to leave). Blahblahblah
Fourth, simply not true as there enough people who critizise.
What you experience is a horrible conflict in which you are the weaker one, but that’s not annihilation.
It does feel like it’s useless talking to you.
So Mina,
All what you want is to victimize the “poor” zionists and solely the “pitiful” jews, and the hell with all the other “inhuman” slaughtered people… at the time you are trying to criminalize the “atrocious” Palestinians for not accepting the “enlightened and civilized” jewish occupation !!! Fine Mina, Excellent !!! Sleep very, very well with this idea, that finally “it is useless talking to a Palestinian”, simply because you can only hear the voice of the “chosen people” … Sorry Mina to disappoint you, I am not a supernatural jew from your “Chosen people”, I am just a simple palestinian breathing the air of his humble people… and far away from reaching the sublime rank of your eloquent zionist “victims” !!!
Sami, the bedouin.
wow sami, where did i write all that that you claim i’m saying?
what you write unfortunately only seems to prove my last sentence from my previous comment.
see, that’s the problem – facts are useless, Palestinian propagandists don’t even *bother* with the numbers, the real numbers, nothing.
it’s just… ugh.
I myself am a grandaughter to holocaust survivors. It seems to me that there are too many people like Sami and Ayah who just believe that the only people you should make a big deal out of them dying are Muslims.
When Jews die, nah, no big deal.
Christians, nah, no big deal.
Muslims being killed by Muslims? Not a word of condemnation.
But Muslims dying in conflict with non-muslims? Oh, somebody cry genocide!
We should take their narrative for what it is – historically false and, ultimately, self-defeating.
And yes, for what it’s worth – this is indeed the rhetoric Palestinan children are taught at school.
Shocking but true.