Why Would Anyone Deny The Holocaust?
September 21st, 2009Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad chose to commemorate Quds Day on Friday, September 18, by expressing his usual doubts as to whether the Holocaust really happened. He stated that the Holocaust was used as a false pretext for occupying Palestinian lands. And he is quoted as questioning, “If the Holocaust was a real event, why don’t they allow research on it to clear up the facts?”
To this last question, I would respectfully ask, “Who are ‘they,’ who are not allowing research to take place?” In addition, “What would the disallowed research show, if ‘they’ allowed it to take place?” Tell me if I am mistaken, but to the best of my knowledge, thousands of books have been written about the Holocaust, by researchers of diverse religious affiliations and backgrounds. Did anyone put a gun to their head as to what they could delve into, and what they should leave alone? Is there some sort of Holocaust Research Police that I don’t know about?
Ahmadinejad is not a stupid man. He has read the books, and seen the movies, and the pictures of the thousands of barracks which housed the Jews, and others as well, on their way to the gas chambers. He has seen photos of the piles of clothing, and shoes, and eyeglasses, and all the sundry possessions of the people who were once living, and who had their lives cut short by the brutality of the Nazis. So why bother denying such incontrovertible facts of history?
Ahmadinejad denies the Holocaust because in his mind such denial serves a purpose. But to what purpose? Perhaps his denial evokes condemnation from the West, and such condemnation can be used to burnish his reputation for defiance against the “tyranny” of the West? Perhaps his denials and his hatred of Israel can be used to divert attention away from his government’s failed policies, and can inspire support among the masses? Perhaps his fiery words can help to justify Iran’s race to become a nuclear power? Perhaps his verbal attacks embolden Iran’s proxies, Hamas and Hezbollah, for further attacks against the Jewish State?
No doubt Ahmadinejad’s Holocaust denials serve their purpose, at least in his mind, but there is also a price to be paid for such claims. When you deny the Holocaust, knowing full well that it took place, you deny yourself, because you are willing to predicate your views on the basis of a lie. So if you are willing to lie to yourself in such a brazen way, then who are you when you look in the mirror?
In addition, when you deny the Holocaust, you deny your own people, because you are willing to lie to them, and to lead them on the basis of the lies you tell. How can you claim to respect your people when you lead them on the basis of a lie?
And finally, when you deny the Holocaust, you deny the future of your nation. For a nation to lift itself up from poverty, and to come to terms with the competitive realities of a global economy, it must first come to terms with the truth, and make changes based on an accurate assessment of its condition. How can you come to terms with the truth when you are willing to sweep away the suffering and killing of millions, in the name of propaganda and short-sighted self-interest?
Ahmadinejad may have his reasons for denying the Holocaust, but he should question, in his own mind, whether his reasons justify the consequences. He betrays himself, his people, and the future of his nation, by clinging to his fantasies. The lies he tells are the lies which hold his people back. He speaks for calculation’s sake, but on this score at least, he has miscalculated grossly.
Loading ...
Loading...
THE FOUNDING MYTHS OF MODERN ISRAEL
This book shouldbe studies carefully to know how the zionists are useing the different heresies of theological myths including the extravagantly exaggerated myth of the “Holocaust” to justify all the atrocieties committed by the “poor” zionists against the natives of Palestine !!!
Nissim, this question shows total ignorance:
just read about this great Philosopher named Roger Garudi who was, he, himself, fighting aginst the Nazis in WW2. He was lynched, banned, sued, silenced and finally executed politically and morally as one of the most prominent philosophers of the whole world for what? just for daring to refute the zionist version of “truth” !!!
Why should I believe the zionist lies of “holocaust”, “the chosen people”, “the promised land”? Why should the whole world swim within this racist discourse?
Look and see how many “laws”, the zionists could pass in the different “enlightened” world to punish and torture who dares to deny the “holocaust” !!! Why should the zionists monopolize the “truth” and allege that they are always right? What “holocaust” but in the zionist minds? Yes, there was hundreds and probably thousands jews killed as there were over 70 millions of the native Americans were slaughtered, and over 200 millions of the black Africans tortured and killed in the slavery age of America. Germany also lost 20 millions lives in WW2 as Dresden city was bombed to the ground and 5 millions Germans dies only in this city !! Why only the jews should be remembered? to serve the international zionism?
Yes, there is a thought police composed of the international zionism to silence anyone who dares to write the TRUTH of what really happened in WW2 and reveal the zionist lies.
The zionists are using different myths to justify occupying the Palestinians, taking their land, killing them, and kicking the rest out of their homeland …. Can you tell me who is the “chosen people”? Which God can choose one race if not a racist god? if it is not an old myth the jews created to justify their superiority? What is the “promised land” other than another zionist lie? Who promised anyway? Shall I create my own myth and say that God promised me personally to give me Tel-Aviv? What a heresy you zionists live in !!!
Wake up Nissim and see that truth cant be monopolized specially with the presence of the great thinkers like Roger Garudi, remember this name and see how the zionists are trying to annihilate his great mind that cant be silenced !!!
Salam
Sami, the bedouin.
I do not speak Persian and I cannot read what he actually said, but knowing that Western mainstream media distorts the content of certain speeches, announcement and news content in generals by selective choice of words and biased translation, I am curious if Ahmedinejad sounds like he denied the holocaust also in Persian. Can anyone from Iran confirm that?
If you don’t know what I’m talking about please follow these links:
Does Iran’s President Want Israel Wiped Off The Map – Does He Deny The Holocaust?
Does Ahmadinejad Really Deny Nazi Holocaust? Or Does He Question Zionism?
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad come from a branch of Islam which believes the Koran is not the full and final revelation. Followers of the Shia sect appear to trace their lineage to Ali, a cousin of Mohammed. This means, Ahmadinejad’s claim to revelation may be demonstrated by the ability to engage in a metaphysical discourse whereby the Holocaust is dispatched and turned into a fairy tale or illusion. These powers are similar to the powers professed by other prophets, most of whom have turned out to be false. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad will never be Mohemmed PBUH, he is a dangerous usurper who must be punished.
Sami, you will probably not reply to this, like there when a similar topic was talked about: http://www.mideastyouth.com/2009/09/03/israel-inherently-evil-or-misunderstood/#comments
Here you claim you were “… living the second Holocaust since over sixty years…” (comment numero 32).
But now, just out of interest, where do your numbers come from? It’s the first time I hear that Dresden, a city of today about 500 000, EVER had 5 million people in it who could have died. Even Berlin, our biggest city, barely has 3 million and a half. So how can 5 million die “in Dresden alone” This shows you’re just talking about things you don’t know anything about, and you don’t care to know anything about because it doesn’t fit your agenda. Funny thing is, that even Neo-Nazis here don’t even come up with five hundred thousand, and believe me, they try hard.
Your number is something so stupid I can’t even believe I’m commenting on this, but I am afraid that people might believe this bullshit.
@ Nissim: Thank you for this post. I have no idea why people deny the Holocaust. I would be interested to know if they would also deny Nazi Germany’s Holocaust against the Roma and Sinti…. Then I wonder if they realize that the numbers they quote, like the number of the Russians killed during the War and the Holocaust, also includes the murdered Russian Jews.
isn’t better to keep mouth shut when we don’t have a proper knowledge on specific topics?
now I advise you to study about shia school of thought and Islam, then you can come here to comment ,
No muslim from any school of thoughts thinks that Qura’an is incomplete , whoever thinks like that is not actually a muslim to begin with, Allah revealed Quran verses and he will protect it until the end according to the Koranic verse, no one can add to it nor delete anything off it.
and what a silly comparison you made regarding Ahmadinejad, holocaust , shia , Ali and revelation , I am afraid to say it didn’t make sense at all, 2 different and totally different matters,
Mahmoud ahmadinejad never claimed to have a prophecy, seems you don’t know anything about islam and the prophet Muhammad PBUH who is a seal of the prophets and shias never believe Ali had any revelations, it is you and your pathetic heart and mind only think like that out of your sheer hatred,
to aykut
there are distorted facts about holocaust, in fact no one denies jew s discrimination in Europe and the US , specially in Germany but the number of jews death toll is faux, there were millions of non jews almost 3 times more than Jews died in world war 2, yet they only pay attributes and honor to jewish victims in the world war memorial, holocaust is something now to suck other innocent nation’s blood….no one says jews never killed in world war 2 but they say using and abusing their death is just Zionist plot in the name of holocaust and fake gas chambers there are many historians proved it fake , such as Robert Faurrison, Irving ,Butz….etc etc…. in Belgium the leader of one of the leading parties questioned the existence of gas chambers and the number of the jews killed by nazies, ,the lats but not the least there is a secret connection between nazi and zionist…….!!!!
and DR train the usurper is you and the terrorist government which you support (israel)
PS:
to aykut.again .
actually he never denied jews casualty and oppression during the history , he has a good relationship with a few orthodox anti Zionist Jews across the world, and i assure you his words are lost in translation….by the way questioning n distorted facts of holocaust is not antisemitism , but it is digging into Zionist plot to show how they stole Palestinian land, which belongs to all Palestinians either Jew Muslim christian!
How come denying holocaust is an unforgivable crime but killing innocent poeple stealing their land destroying their houses and smuggling their body organs all done by Zionist regime of Israel is not crime????????????
Hi Samimaneh, I can only comment on one of the topis you bring up.
You say that nearly three times more non-Jews than Jews died in World War II. The total number of people killed at World War II was about 50 millions, Jews included. So how many Jews you think were killed?
And, honestly, you are not in very good company with the “historians” you quote. Regarding the Belgian leader, I guess you’re talking about the Vlaams Blok / Belang here, the very right-wring party that by the way is accused, by European media, of racism and does not really talk very nicely about Muslims (look for yourself at their website, after just being on it for three minutes I found this: http://www.vlaamsbelang.org/fotos/20090528gediscrimineerd.jpg or this http://www.vlaamsbelang.org/fotos/20090731immigratie.jpg). Interesting. So are those belifes of theirs true as well? One of the other people you mention, Irving, is in close contact with the DVU, an extremely right-wing party that gives the impression that they would like Germany to be home for Germans only and throw out everyone else. (see for yourself at dvu.de and here especially the links)
as for ahmedinezad, i believe he is an idiot for even talking about the holocaust, let alone confirming or denying it. after all, what relevance does this real or supposed (depending on what you believe or dont believe)incident has to do with Iran’s independence day? regardless of whether he believes or denies the holocaust, he should focus on the progress of his people and country. Believe me, holocaust, israel, jews are the least worries of the average iranian;jobs, trade,education etc are more important.
second, as for the author of this article, i understand that you are not only jewish but also israeli and obviously have a strong emotional attachment to the holocaust, but why are you and so many of your countrymen so obssessed with whether ahmedinezad believes or denies the holocaust? Why do you ppl give so much importance to that idiot? It seems that most of you also have a craze for this guy and want to exaggerate the situation. Why give him so much attention and importance?? i dont really understand.
last but not least, i have no love lost for that idiot ruler in iran who has a big mouth and who i personally believe is a loose canon and a curse for his own ppl. However, i do believe that the holocaust has been exploited by many jews as well to justify blind support of israel and its excesses. Most muslims do perhaps believe in the holocaust to some extent, but what is mind boggling is how holocaust has been used as a pretext by many jews/jewish organizations to shield israel from criticism or reprimand. i believe that is very dangerous and will ultimately lead to the undoing of all progress that jews have contributed as a ppl to civilization. I am sorry to say but many jews keep sucking on the nipples of the holocaust (and as a result are belittling that tragic event) to justify israel whether right or wrong. That tragedy should not be used to justify israel’s political machinations or its military expansionism. I truly believe that is much more tragic than ahmedinezad’s loose rantings. And one more last thing; there should be open freedom to believe or deny some event. This may upset many jews or israelis, but freedom of thought should always be cherished no matter what. i may strongly feel about some event and another may not believe in that concept,event, belief, value system etc and that may really upset me and i may not like that individual but i should accept the freedom of that person not to believe in what i believe, instead of demonizing that person on that specific account, otherwise i have no right to call myself or my society a free society which cherishes freedom of thought,belief etc. While i am no fan of ahmedinezad’s iran, but what is disturbing is that i havent seen any jews(perhaps there may be some but i yet to have to see or hear) criticize european countries for jailing its citizens who deny or doubt the holocaust. i do believe that ppl who leave swatizkas on synagogues should be arrested and prosecuted but if a non-jewish european citizen doesnt believe or doubts the holocaust, should that individual necessarily be arrested and demonized? Can such a society be considered truly free? As i said before, a jewish person may not like a non-jewish person for denying or doubting holocaust, but in the name of freedom of thought, should that non-jewish person be prosecuted on that account? where does the concept of freedom of thought and speech which the West keeps parakeeting about 24/7 goes now? Lets be honest, while we condemn ahmedinezad and his iran , let us also be truthful about the “enlightened West” which has its double standards as well(Dark Ages, Holocaust, The Inquisition, The Plague, The 100 yrs War all took place on European soil). Ahmedinezad is here today;tomorrow or day after that, he will probably be gone with not many ppl caring about him but i believe that a society evolves positively from true introspection and intellectual honesty instead of forcing its own ideology on other ppl/nations who may or may not choose to think or act differently.
Mina, dont bother to reply Sami. He has nothing but vile hatred for the Jews. I saw him referring to hoaxes like protocols of the elders of Zion in one of his posts, which was later censored by the admin. This alone proves credibility.
rehan khan, agree with you entirely. Prosecution of holocaust denial in Europe is nothing but a draconian law used by the Zionist groups to justify the Israeli war crimes in palestine. You cant speak about free speech and in the same time arrest people who do not agree with you.
Sami,
European laws regarding Holocaust denial is up to Europeans, but I’m satisfied with the current laws regarding speech here in the US. As for Roger Garaudy, the former Communist, former Protestant, former Catholic, and currently Muslim philosopher was convicted of “challenging crimes against humanity,” of “racial libel,” and of questioning “the Nazi policy of exterminating the Jews.” I think he actually made money because of the financial support he got from Arab and Muslim countries.
As for the Holocaust’s special status in education, I think you misunderstand the purpose or even the nature of it. This is not surprising since you not only deny the vast majority of research on the subject, you think the West’s entire scholarship and understanding of it was created by the Zionist movement.
You then follow by bringing numbers of American Indians killed, Africans who fell victim to the Western slave trade, and number of Germans killed during WWII. As for American Indians, the vast majority of them died from disease brought from Europe. But the Holocaust is an important event studied in Western history because it teaches how a large part of European society set out to systematically categorize and eliminate several minorities (mainly the Jews) based on racial and religious measures.
Mina has already posted a comment here showing your utter lack of knowledge about WWII and the Holocaust.
It seems to me that you perceive the Zionist movement as powerful and global in its reach. Therefore it must be difficult to imagine how the Jewish people could have died in such large numbers when Zionism, a Jewish national movement, is so powerful to not only exile a large part of the Arab community of Palestine, but also defeat in battle the armies of several Arab countries.
For the millionth time you bring up the “chosen people” phrase. It seems to me that you believe that the Jews are thought of as superior in Western civilization because the Bible proclaims them to be “chosen” by God over the rest. It is first important to note that there is no such thing as a Jewish race. Second, “Jew” has been considered an insult in Western culture for centuries. A large part of the history of Christian theology has been about replacing Jews and Judaism. Not till the 1960’s did the Catholic Church reverse much of its anti-Jewish doctrine. Since history shows that the Western world has never viewed the Jews as superior, was this “myth” created to make Jews feel superior to others? The answer is no, and I rely upon the rest of the “chosen people” phrase and modern biblical scholarship. First, what were the Jews “chosen” for? They were “chosen” to obey Torah. Torah, as a set of commandments, is much more difficult to follow than what others are desired by God to follow. Yet the Jewish tradition views gentiles as people who can be righteous, not by becoming Jewish, but for following much fewer and easier commandments. Therefore the Jewish tradition doesn’t care if you are Jewish or not, in respect to righteousness. But if you are Jewish, you are commanded to follow Torah. Some of modern Biblical scholarship suggests that the Israelites were in fact native Canaanites given a national identity and purpose by Torah.
[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Babak Ghazvehi, Maliheh, Daniel C-S, Sonja Jo and others. Sonja Jo said: Why Would Anyone Deny The Holocaust? (mideastyouth) http://bit.ly/3pJSX9 #Iran [...]
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad clearly said: The Holocaust is a fairy tale. He was therefore having some kind of divine revelation because only Allah himself could make the reality disappear.
I see Samimaneh (Iran) is a backward Shia, who probably believes Ahmadinejad is the 12th Imam if not Mohammed himself?
You are so wrong, uneducated and ignorant, because I am a Muslim and don’t support Zionist Israel.
Maulana Igsaan Hendricks has resoundingly condemned Holocaust Denial:
Here is a link to his recent address on the subject:http://www.quickshare.co.za/files/077zjiu2/OL_22-09-09_Ml_Igsaan.mp3.html
Dawood.
I think an interesting point is brought up regarding what several people refered to as “censorship” in European countries.
In Germany we have a law against “Volksverhetzung” (”stirring up the populace”, “agitation of the people”). If you speak German, you can find a lot of information at the German Wikipeida which explains the issue very well: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volksverhetzung
I now quote from the (much shorter) English site because I can’t translate these terms from
German into English:
“It is a common misconception that Volksverhetzung includes any spreading of nazism, racist, or
other discriminatory ideas. For any hate speech to be punishable as Volksverhetzung, the law requires that said speech be “qualified for disturbing public peace” either by inciting “hatred against parts of the populace” or calling for “acts of violence or despotism against them”, or by attacking “the human dignity of others by reviling, maliciously making contemptible or slandering parts of the populace”.”
So this means that with the history of Germany, and the history of the Holocaust, it was considered more important to save our citizens from hate-speeches and possible resulting crimes, then to make sure that people can say whatever they want.
It is not “that easy” to be convicted for such crimes though. Same goes for our parties. For example it was attempted to abolish the NPD, an extreme right-wing and in my opinion racist party (I’m not exactly sure but the guy who killed the Muslim woman in the court in Dresden was at least a follower). Already two attempts were made to abolish that party, but not successful. It might work next time though because that party is accused of having sent hate mail and threats to German politicians of Turkish, Arabic and African origin (source: http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/0,1518,650590,00.html). Threatening someone could qualify as voicing your opinion, but also here your right as a person to not be physically or verbally abused is higher than the right of the NPD to send out hate mail and threats.
Personally, I’m glad we have this law.
Yes Mina,
You are right regarding Dresden, I remember the (5) number and when looked back I saw that there were .5 million died in Dresden only !! 500, 000 Germans payed their life for Dresden only, and even 1/10 of this number is too much for one city !!
However, in WW2 very few jews died compared to the other nations… but the jews monopolized the disaster to silence their opponents and to drown the affections of others while they actually committing another Holocaust against the Palestinians of annihilating a whole people!!
Can you tell me why most of the Europeans think that israel is the most dangerous country for the stability of the whole world?
Plus, the zionists are using the “holocaust” allegation to suppress the others and got moral right to occupy other people and annihilate it.
No one can deny the disaster that swept the whole of Europe in WW2 and reaped 50 million victims BY EUROPEAN hands and we muslin have nothing to do with it… but the zionists come here to make us pay the price for a crime that the European committed!!! Why?
Why should I pay for the “holocaust” of being refugee since I was born and live the hell because of the zionist lies of alleging that my homeland is their “promised land” and that they are living as a superior “chosen” people on my own homeland and torture me when I ask for equal human rights alleging that they were tortured in WW2 and deserve more than us the native? Why they still dont want to give us peace while the whole world is begging them to give us just less than 20% of our homeland?
The hell with the zionist and their alleged lie of a “holocaust”… I know no holocaust but what I live in daily since I was born!!!
Sami,the bedouin.
The real daily Holocaust in Palestine is our Holocaust committed by the liar zionists!!!
The Holocaust is used like a weapon of mass destruction by Jewish Zionists to try to stop debate over Israeli atrocities against the Palestinian people. In the late 1990s I was outed (knowingly incorrectly) as “anti-Semitic” by the Zionist representative in Australia, Jeremy Jones. …
Sami,
Read this short article – “12 Things You Didn’t Know About Judaism”.
It explains the “chosen people” thing better.
You are letting age-old myths from Europe cloud your judgement of Israelis and Jews.
Sami, the Holocaust is not a “myth.” It is the systematic, cold-blooded murder of millions of Jews, and other groups as well, who were singled out for no other reason than who they were, and what they believed in.
The “myth” in all of this is your desire to believe that it didn’t happen. And the question becomes, “Why do you wish to cling to that myth?” Is is because you believe that the Holocaust, if it did happen, would confer some sort of legitimacy to the Jews’ desire to have a homeland of their own? Well, guess what? If that is what you think, then you’re right. The Holocaust is at the core of Israel’s right to exist as a homeland for the Jews. And it wasn’t just Jews who came to believe this. In the wake of the Holocaust, a majority of nations in the United Nations voted to create a Jewish state, perhaps in part because the Holocaust took place, as the culmination of some 2000 years of persecution of the Jews.
Does the Holocaust excuse anything that Israel chooses to do? No. But you can’t really understand what Israel does, unless you understand what the Holocaust means to Jews.
Try six million.
Rehan, if you deny the Holocaust, and you persuade enough people accordingly, then it becomes easier for you to delegitimize Israel’s right to exist, as a home for the Jews, and therefore, easier to do what it takes to liquidate the Jewish State.
In addition, we have to take seriously what Ahmadinejad has to say, especially when he is on the cusp of acquiring nuclear weapons. No matter how loony you are, and what loony things you have to say, when you have nuclear weapons, people are going to listen. And that is why some Iranian leaders are so hell bent on acquiring nuclear weapons; because it will give them cover to think as they wish, and to do what they want inside their country, and outside as well. And that is also why, in the final analysis, Israel will probably have no choice but to do what it takes to take the nuclear facilities out, as painful and as risky as that may be.
Rehan, as Mina made clear, freedom of speech has its limits. You are not allowed, for example, to go into a crowded movie theater and yell, “Fire.” There are limits to what you can and can’t say. There were laws passed in places like Germany, and other nations, which curb the right of speech. These laws were not passed by Zionists, but were passed by the governments themselves in light of an historical legacy of racist violence. As Mina wisely says, “So this means that with the history of Germany, and the history of the Holocaust, it was considered more important to save our citizens from hate-speeches and possible resulting crimes, then to make sure that people can say whatever they want.”
“Prosecution of Holocaust denial in Europe is nothing but a draconian law used by the Zionist groups to justify war crimes in Palestine.”
In the first place, such prosecutions have nothing to do with Zionism, but are in pursuant to laws passed by the European governments themselves for the sake of their own wellbeing.
I don’t doubt that Israel has engaged in some acts which are morally wrong. I also believe that the occupation is wrong, and does not bode well for Israel’s long term best interests. I believe in a two-state solution which is just and equitable. However, when I proceed to judge Israel, I have no choice but to make such judgements using the prisim of some 2000 years of the persecution of the Jews, a history which culminated in the Holocaust, which still stands as one of the single most evil deeds perpetrated by the hands of man.
Some people compare the vicitims of the Holocaust to the victims of war. It is not the same. In war, two sides fight one another and people die as a result, some of them innocent civilians. In the Holocaust, millions of defenseless people were murdered for no reason at all, simply by virtue of their birth into a certain group, which is still no reason at all. When you murder for no reason, that is by far the darkest murder there is.
Nissim,
Six millions in your mind but not in reality which lots of European historian refuted recently including Roger Gurudi… and the gaz chambers is total nonsense but a zionist lie !!!
and this just confirm what I have said: the zionists are using the myths to lihitemize their oppression to the Palestinians and steal their homeland, and committ all kinds of calamaties against them…
Again, the German Nazis killed some of the Jews, so what the Palestinians have to do with this? Why should we pay for all the Nazi crimes? Why should the same Nazi crimes be inflicted against us in Palestine?
The zionists are using the different myths to justify annihilating the Palestinians who have nothing to do with the Nazi crimes. This is so clear now for the whole world!!
Sami, the bedouin.
Nisim says:
Does that mean the holocaust is legitimizing Israeli state? If that’s the case than wouldn’t it be just expectable -and even acceptable- to create and support a whole big mythology around this incident to keep this state going? I guess this is what the so called “holocaust denialists” are trying to point to. The need for an open discussion on the way Israel exists, including its foundations, be it holocaust or not (I don’t think it is holocaust anyway) and its overall hostility to native people of its land and its neighbors, as well as its religious and racist (Zionist) basis is becoming too great to ignore. It would be surprising if majority of people give it up merely because of the threats against the nutcase called Ahmedinejad. The western mainstream media is making an example of a person who wants to start this debate (or carry it to a politically higher level) and they seem to be doing it well.
Isn’t possesion of nuclear weapons particularly how Israel can act the way it does (to think as they wish, and to do what they want inside their country, and outside as well.)? When it is so clear that Israel’s doings contain so many wrongs, even relative to Iran’s, where is the discussion on Israel’s nuclear weapons? And what is this issue doing in this debate here? I feel the equation of “Ahmedinejad is a nutter who denies holocaust therefore he cannot have nuclear weapons” sounds very dangerous, especially when it seems that he is not really denying it but even without that. He is not yelling “fire” inside a theatre, he seems to be criticizing an event which has turned into a myth. If we would start making a criteria of countries and leaders who seem suitable to have nuclear weapons, the first countries to be denied them would be USA and Israel, wouldn’t they? So we’ll need to stop pretending that we are seeking a moral basis (here it is accepting the holocaust) in countries to have nuclear weapons, because we just don’t have it.
Fuck Israel and Fuck Iran, and Fuck all the states in the world who are terrorising innocent peace loving individuals who can’t be bothered to figure out the difference between a Zionist and a non-Zionist, a Shiite and a Sunni. Fuck you all and go to hell.
Just to give you another small sample of how the zionists use the whole world to justify their atrocities, a small example at the size of Shalit (the zionist soldier that was kidnapped from his bace while ready to kill) !!
The zionists are using the whole world to get him free, no single diplomat, no president, no UN officer… no nothing visit the zionist state but to pay homage to the Shalit family and draw affections and show the poor family!!! Even Jimmy Carter was used ofendless visits and lots of mediations efforts to release that “poor” single soldier But all are neglecting the 11,000 Palestinian prisoners to rotten in the zionist jails !!! WHY? Is this soldier more important than our over 11,000 prisoners? Does he have a mother awaiting but ours dont? Is that because he is “chosen” from God to be released? Why our 11,000 prisoners are not remembered? This is the zionist way of working !!!
With all respect and sorrow for all the lives, Amongst all the millions lost their lives in WW2 (for the zionists and for the whole world accordingly) no one lost lives but the jews, no one deserve to be mentioned but the jews !!! The jewish blood is used here to justify their Nazi crimes against us, the Palestinians, and they use the whole world for this!!! They extravagantly exaggerated the jewish blood to seal and annihilate all the others killed in WW2, for the world to remember only the blood of the “chosen people” !!! Why? To justify annihilating the Palestinians? This is how the zionist mentality works!!! There is nothing but the jewish blood, the jewish victim!!!
They deafened our ears with the world “security”, and of course security for the “chosen people” only and solely !! Who need security? Is it the atrocious nuclear zionist state or the indigenous disarmed natives of Palestine who face all the zionist atrocities including testing banned weapons on them? See, how the “chosen people” is chosen and favored in everything?
Sami, the bedouin.
Peace be to you, I live in america, and I know what I was taught. Read Benjamin Freedmans speech in a 1962 hotel in New york city. He was jewish and converted to christianity and tried to warn the people of america of why ww1 and ww2 happened. He gave another speech in 1974. He spent all his money on trying to get americans to see and understand what really happened. The holocaust and wtc are the same. If you talk about wtc and show factual evidence of conflicting data you are labeled a conspiracy theory person. If you question the truth of the halocaust you are arrested. Why would you arrest someone in search of the truth? Because what is revealed by God to be the truth no man or organization of man can hide. Praise be to God.
john
Mr. roodrow says:
First, are you the “big brother” to decide who to reply to whom? Is Mina a juvenile to decide for her what to say and whom to reply? Are you the big boss of the net here?
Second, I never hated jews nor would allow myself to be racist like the zionists. My x-girlfriend is a jew, last month I hosted four jews for a whole weekend in my house and all on the house (just to show you the generosity of the bedouins). Also this weekend I am having a hike with jew friends for two days (and I will get off your back for the whole coming weekend, but I will be thinking of a “new brans” antizionist post that might surprise you). I have read of Judaism and zionism probably more than you, but the more I read the more I become antizionist !!!
All the best “big brother” roodrow !!
Sami, the bedouin.
@Sami:
Regarding what you say here:
“With all respect and sorrow for all the lives, Amongst all the millions lost their lives in WW2 (for the zionists and for the whole world accordingly) no one lost lives but the jews, no one deserve to be mentioned but the jews !!! The jewish blood is used here to justify their Nazi crimes against us, the Palestinians, and they use the whole world for this!!! They extravagantly exaggerated the jewish blood to seal and annihilate all the others killed in WW2, for the world to remember only the blood of the “chosen people” !!! Why? To justify annihilating the Palestinians? This is how the zionist mentality works!!! There is nothing but the jewish blood, the jewish victim!!!”
Simply not true, at least not in Germany. Here, in every single village, you find a memorial for the soldiers of both world wars that died. You can find, for example in the city of Colgone, the former SA-headquarter in which many political prisoners were killed and deportes from for example France or Russia were kept and killed. It’s a very good museum now and a memorial for these people. You find memorials all over Germany for the handicapped that were murdered for not being healthy. You can find memorials for the Sinti and Roma, and also for the murdered homosexuals. The concentration camps within Germany that are memorials and museums now also tell the story of the people who were imprisoned there by the Russians after 1945. We remember our killed citizens from 1953 that tried to overcome the German Democratic Republic. We remember the people that were killed when they tried to make it to West Germany.
No-one has ever stopped us from remembering these people and events. Who are “they”? Who stops you from remembering?
Honestly, your posts (at leats the ones from the two threads I’ve seen, of course I don’t know them all) are nothing but boring. You don’t even care to get into a discussion when people challenge what you’re saying. Instead, you just bring up the same points again and again and again (”chosen people”, “zionist plot”, YAWN!). You’re just talking to yourself and we have to listen, unfortunately.
@ moderator:
Just a question out of interest: how come that Sami’s answers are now suddenly inbetween all the others? I haven’t seen them before, just now. Is this a technical issue or did I just not see them for some reason? I could swear that yesterday the comments weren’t there (for example 15, 16, 19). This gives a wrong impression of the discussion.
Hmm, well, I guess I just didn’t see them. Sorry for that!
Guess I should sleep more or something.
Europe is indeed covered with memorials of war victims.
Sami, your posts are always filled up with misinformation like the 5 million death in Dresden and Zionist elder’s protocols. Do you really think they can be taken seriously after this?
“…jews monopolized the disaster to silence their opponents and to drown the affections of others while they actually committing another Holocaust against the Palestinians of annihilating a whole people!!”
Its the jews you are accusing, not the Zionists. And you did this more than once in your posts in this forum.
If holocaust denial becomes your chief argument against Israeli occupation then that makes you no different from those Zionists who use holocaust to support the occupation. I am sympathetic to your predicament but unfortunately your posts never go beyond hateful rant to anything jewish or western, devoid of any thoughtful analysis.
I would first like to say I was quite intrigued by the points of everyone who commented on this article. Everyone who participated in the discussion added something, and really got me to thinking. Having grown-up first in the US, then in Israel, and then the US again has given me all different perspectives about the situation with Israel and the Palestinians. While I was living in Israel–this is how I remember it being–everyone agreed that Israel had to be in the right and the Arabs had to be in the wrong. They wanted our country destroyed, and all of us dead, and when I was young there seemed to be absolutely no reason behind it besides the religious difference. Obviously, in my mind I made them out to be the “bad guys.” Of course at the time I was merely a child, and no adult could have possibly explained to me what was really going on, so I was left to draw my own conclusions, and create a picture that was black and white out of a situation that clearly has no one “right” answer. When I came back to the US I found myself experiencing first hand some things I had never personally had to deal with before: discrimination, prejudice, and people judging me based on my religion, as I know people on this site will as well. However, I also gained a lot from this experience. I made the connection that the prejudgment that was made against me was the very same that I had adapted in Israel towards Arabs, Muslims, and non-Jews in general. I acknowledged this to be wrong, and to this day I do my best to look past such prejudices, because they truly are unfair and nonproductive.
Sami: I also do my best to remain open minded, so as I read your responses and comments I attempted to see things from your perspective. However, this is very difficult when I have to sift through all of the random facts that are blown completely out of proportion, as Mani did prove… However, on the whole i think you have really strong points. For example, the fact that the death of Jews in the Holocaust is over-exaggerated and that millions and millions of other people died as well that aren’t quite as emphasized, I find this to be true, but to an extent. I think its true that the Holocaust is most often associated with the concentration and extermination camps, who’s sole purpose truly was to degrade and terminate the people in Europe with Judaic background or faith. You are right, however, that a larger percentage of the people who died in WWII were non-Jews, but also people defending the Jews, people of disability, gypsies, people against the Nazi Party, and the list goes on. But the fact remains that the most targeted minority group were the Jews. This we can find just by looking at history… Do some research.
The idea that the Zionists are trying to use the Holocaust as an excuse to create a holocaust of their own against the Palestinians is an idea worth discussing, because to me the idea that this could be true is unthinkable to be. If you read my response to rehan khan i elaborate more on this…
rehan khan: I agree with everything you said regarding people needing to have the right to free speech, opinions, belief, etc. because it really is human rights that are being discussed. I was not even aware that people are being arrested just for what they believe is truth in Europe, but I truly disapprove and hope the situation changes. What you said about the Jews giving Ahmadinejad importance and trying to exaggerate the situation is a bit of a generalization. I also want to point out that its not just about him denying the Holocaust, but about the fact that he has said explicitly that Iran will become a nuclear power and then bomb Israel, hence “wiping them off the map.” This is what frightens me, as well as, I assume, most Israelis and Jews, not just Ahmadinejad’s crazy babble. Lastly, what you said about Jews using the Holocaust as an excuse for their political and military actions i feel is somewhat vague. How can we possibly use that as an excuse? Like you said it’s an tragic and terrible part of the world’s history, that helped bring the realization that there needs to be a country or state in which Jewish people can live and not be outsiders in their own nation. After that it became a matter of geography. Clearly, the Palestinians were not treated rightly, and that has been a source of conflict ever since. You’re saying that Israel has used the Holocaust as reasoning for their actions but I don’t understand where this claim has come from or how its even possible. Don’t get me wrong, i’m not saying everything Israel has done has been justified, but neither has the actions of the Palestinians. There has been some foul play on both sides, but i would just like to point out that while Israel has been open to try and negotiate Palestinians only want to fight, gain the land of Israel, back or not, through manipulation of information or through violence. Or at least that is how it seems from my current perspective. If you have more information on this I would be glad to discuss this further…
od yavo shalom aleinu, salam, aleinu ve al kol ha olam
may there be peace, for us and throughout the world
Sami, I am also glad to hear you don’t hate Jews
silly as that sounds I feel it makes it less pointless for me to participate in a discussion with you, despite me thinking your ideas are somewhat far-fetched. Makes the conversation more interesting. 
Mina: i also really appreciate all the perspective you have inputted from Germany, as well as the research you’ve been doing. Its quite helpful
Peace!
Thanks Dari for being open. I value these discussions on mideastyouth even more when people seem to let go of their “beliefs” in return of reaching a common ground to walk together from.
It sounds somewhat funny that you say “Having grown-up first in the US, then in Israel, and then the US again has given me all different perspectives about the situation with Israel and the Palestinians.” Most people would agree that, judged by their doings the two places do not have any difference in the way of viewing the issue, maybe ignorable nuances. That’s also why you have quite a ridiculous (sorry but that’s how it sounds) opinion as “while Israel has been open to try and negotiate Palestinians only want to fight, gain the land of Israel, back or not, through manipulation of information or through violence.” There is far more evidence to show that this is exactly otherwise and yet you are so conditioned to even dare say it in front of other people. We all have cultural conditionings even when we don’t come from places where it is particularly strong like US or Israel, but as a citizen of both countries you do carry a responsibility to open your mind. Coming here to this forum is a good start and I hope it will go on. I also hope people do not start writing down things to prove to you that it is Israel and not Palestine which is pushing violence and non-negotiation here. It is as obvious as it can be for most people I believe and this discussion has been made thousands of times.
Many people in this area of the world do want to live in peace and they see Israel as the reason why there is no peace -and once again we have to agree with it to a certain level, at least agree that it is the main source of non-peace here. So, people get very sensitive and then you have to use words carefully not to ignite reactions. For example, on a discussion about the Holocaust you still feel obliged to say something like “the Holocaust is most often associated with the concentration and extermination camps, who’s sole purpose truly was to degrade and terminate the people in Europe with Judaic background or faith.” which is not true and you know is not true and you correct it with the next sentence and name the other people dead in the holocaust who were not jews. I don’t think this was deliberate but I just want to point that these kind of things make discussions go on forever witout any results.
And you say: “I also want to point out that its not just about him denying the Holocaust, but about the fact that he has said explicitly that Iran will become a nuclear power and then bomb Israel, hence “wiping them off the map.” Are you sure this is what he said or you heard it in the news? We are made to believe by the mainstream media that Iran, one of the most peaceful countries in the Middle East, will attack Israel, and this poor Israel, clearly the most non-peaceful country in the Middle East, will once again find itself in a position of defence. This is such big crap that it is a very good example of how far media language and propaganda can dare to shift public opinion. First of all currently the only nuclear threat in the Middle East is Israel and it is a threat, since it is a country that is constantly in war with it’s neighbors, keeping big pieces of other countries’ land under occupation, etc. (and is seen as a threat by vast majority of people of the region). Secondly, Ahmedinejad never said he’s going to nuke Israel (“explicitly”???). How could he? He didn’t even admit he’s after them. And for the neo-con mantra of “wiping Israel off the map” I’ll quote the article I have mentioned on my comment #2:
So he is apparently only voicing the concern of tens of millions of people that one day there will be no more Zionism. That would perfectly be a great move towards peace in the world (of course you might not see it that way if you are zionist yourself). Still he is talking of a problematic regime and not the country itself, neither its people (jews). The way media puts it makes me truly sick. It is so “right” to say “mullahs in Iran have to go”, “Taliban has to go” or “communists have to go” but when someone starts talking of “helping zionism go down in the pages of history” all the media rush to persecute him!
When we remember how to hear each other and remember that we all are the same and want the same thing, then we will realize peace.
Sami, numbers don’t really seem to be your thing, eh? I didn’t say 500 000 were killed in Dresden. I said even Neo-Nazis here are not able to come up with that number. At the time Dresden didn’t even have 700 000 people (don’t be surprised, our cities in the East have shrunk, mostly because so many people went to Western Germany after reunification). No serious historian even thinks 50 000 died. Still, a horrible number, of course, and of course it’s wrong to target civilians in wars, but Germany at the time tried the exact same thing (would have bombed London to bits and pieces if it had helped them to win and actually pretty much did that in Warsaw).
Also, when I said that 50 million died in WORLD War II I wasn’t only talking about the dead in the Europe. You might remember that Asia had its share of dead as well.
I find interesting that you don’t even doubt your exaggerated numbers, and you obviously believe what historians found out regarding these numbers, while at the same time you doubt what the very same historians have found out about the number of Jews killed by the Nazis. Why is that, Sami? Maybe you take what is said about the one for granted because it suits you, while the other ones don’t suit you?
Also, what does that really say about yourself. Why is it that you smell the “Zionist conspiracy” everywhere? So you think that Zionists here in Germany have the power to influence our researchers so heavily that we can’t do research on our own? Interesting. Have you ever wondered where these numbers might come from? For example, how do we know, for every little village, who was killed during the war? Whose sons were sent to war to fight? Who was deported and killed? Who died of something else? You find the names of the soldiers killed in a small memorial in nearly every village. Then, for people who were deported (Jews, Sinti and Roma, homosexuals, dissidents…) there are now little stones in front of the houses these people lived in to remember these people. So you think the Zionists came over and made us do all this?
Or is it maybe that you are so unsure about yourself, about your weaknesses, maybe even about your perceived weakness of the Palestinians, that you have to make your enemy stronger than anyone else in the world? So this would be the explanation that you are oppressed and occupied, because you are oppressed and occupied by the strongest power in the world, by the “Zionist conspiracy”, that even controls the whole West, its research, its political preferences???? So you are weak because you are fighting the strongest enemy there is (in your opinion?)? Just a question because you kinda make it seem like that, in my opinion. Might also be the reason you have to see everything so black and white. I have been really impressed with many of the authors on this site, because they are so self-confident and proud of who they are, that they are able to criticize what they don’t like about their societies. This is incredibly brave. I haven’t seen you do that at all.
@Dari:
As i said before, i dont care about ahmedinezad or his vile regime, but to be honest i havent ever heard him say “when we get the bomb we will wipe israel off the map”. maybe he did say it, maybe he didnt, i dont know because anyone can put anything in one’s mouth these days. Regarding the Holocaust, i dont know how more clear i can be to explain what i was trying to say but let me try again. I believe the Holocaust is being used as a pretext for israel to attack palestine, lebnon, iraq and perhaps in the future syria and iran. i believe that is wrong.
@Nissim:
you said that “if you deny the Holocaust—–” (dont want to type the whole thing). With all due respect, that shows your insecurity. That logic is basically equivalent of a Jew telling a non-Jew that “if you deny Judaism, then it will be easy to liquidate Jews”. Sorry to say but if a religion or ideology is so weak that denying,doubting or rejecting by others is enough to shake its foundations, then your belief system is either inherently flawed or more likely your belief system is one that really weak.
then, you perhaps didnt read the whole thing, because you conveniently left out what i said about rejecting a particular belief. Of course i am not a two year old that i dont know that if you yell fire in a theater or bomb in an airport, you abuse your freedom of speech. but that wasnt my point and it seems that you conveniently ignored that as well as ignored what i said about arrest of european citizens denying holocaust. your just in favor of what serves your interest and thats the whole problem.
he usually uses an ambiguous style to speak about such things. for example, he might be quotes as saying “they [: zionists] ues a lie to justify their crimes”, and once asked what he meant by ‘lie’, he would say: “ok, i didnt mean that holocaust did not happen at all… i meant this or that….”
some fictions dont loose their funny taste even if repeated 1000 times.
To Sami the bedouin: Hold fast to your argument, you are on the right path. If the pro-Zionists want to see Orthodox Jews who oppose Zionism as much as Arabs do, visit the website of Neturei Karta (www.nkusa.org ). These are practicing Jews who follow the Truth viv-a-vis the Hebrew teachings about Palestine. Not like the hypocritical atheists (Reform Jews deny life after death, for example) whose only connection to Judaism is their concept of Zionism. To give an example, for many years the NK have been “celebrating” the founding of the zionist entity of “Israel” in occupied Palestine by burning the zionist flag publicly in front of the Zionist delegation to the UN, in New York.
And for those who think the Protocols were totally false (who determined this? Menachem Begin?), you need to read about the “Israel” Lobby in Washington DC (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/16/books/16book.html) written by 2 professors at Harvard and U. Chicago.
It’s no surprise that Zionists would use these pages as an outlet for their false propaganda, hoping to weaken Arab opposition to their campaign of terror and genocide agaist the Arabs of Palestine and south Lebanon!
April747;OANWAEM;UFS
How many readers are aware that the Zionist newspaper “Haaretz” brazenly published an article that an Israeli worker had received an e-mail the morning of the 9-11 attacks, warning that it was coming? read it here. And ask yourselF: how did they know in advance??
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=77744&contrassID=/has%5C#
Then listen to those rambling about the Protocols being all lies and nazi propaganda. The Zionists were tracking the al-Qa’ida terrorists in the US, they knew what they were up to, and they LET THEM DO IT! Why? Because they knew the Bush fascists wanted an excuse to attack Iraq for the Zionists, and knowing that Saddam Hussain was their biggest enemy, they sacrificed thousands of Americans to achieve their goal!
i read the haaretz article and see no mention of who informed the two employees. Who knows who, called or why? Furthermore, i read that the emails or ims were immediately reported to supervisors, then to israeli security and american.
Tremendous jealousy toward israel obvious on this site,as their should be. But , u should work with israel.There are elements there to be worked with.
Some satisfy themselves with conspiracy theories, and others search for the truth. You can take any isolated piece of evidence, or even invent your own bits and pieces of evidence, and weave them together into some sort of theory which confirms what you already believed in, in the first place. Or you can consider your mind a clean slate, and use you sense of logic, and comon sense, to arrive at what is worth believing in. If you ask me, God speaks to us in common sense notions.
Instead of believing what we want to believe, why not start believing in what makes sense?Instead of jumping to false belief and then rationalizing why we’re right, why not use rationality in the first place to arrive at what is worth believing in?
False belief is at the heart of what is wrong in this world. It may give us some small measure of comfort to trumpet our false beliefs loudly to the world, but it gets us nowhere fast on the path to peace.
There is an opportunity, even as we speak, to further the cause of peace. But we will have to seize that opportunity, and that will mean letting go of some of our beliefs, in favor of something we can believe in even more, like peace. We have no choice but to think clearly, and to let go of some of our favorite conspiracy theories, in favor of ideas which make more sense and which move us in the direction of getting along, working together, making this world more sustainabile, and pointing to the possibility of peace. Do we dare to step out of who we are, to become something even more?
Great what you say Nissim,
does this apply tp the zionists who are blinded by their coherent theology and refusing all the calls beggong them for peace? For me they font see other than occupying the whole of the “promised land” !!!
Sami
Sami, for the past two weeks, my wife and I have been touring your part of the world. And yes, extremism is extremism wherever it is to be found. However, having seen what I have seen, and having talked with the people of the region, I see great hope for peace, which I will discuss with you when we get back home, in about one week. Maybe instead of just talking, we will both figure out a way to make something happen along these lines. Stranger things have happened.
Good Nissim… hope you enjoyed your trip,… I have never been outside Palestine nor would prefer to leave my homeland.
Sometimes Western tourists come to show us their pity but still the situation is deteriorating with every passing year… and I personally have been facing occupation since I was born, not helplessly but doing my best to get free…
Hope? Yes, I do have hope but not “great expectations” at the horizon !!!
[...] During a time that the President of Iran and others are denying the Holocaust in Nazi Germany existed the USC Shoah Foundation Institute has published a [...]
[...] نیسیم داهان مطلب را به بالاترین [...]