Peace,
Hadar

Sometimes Western tourists come to show us their pity but still the situation is deteriorating with every passing year… and I personally have been facing occupation since I was born, not helplessly but doing my best to get free…

Hope? Yes, I do have hope but not “great expectations” at the horizon !!!

False belief is at the heart of what is wrong in this world. It may give us some small measure of comfort to trumpet our false beliefs loudly to the world, but it gets us nowhere fast on the path to peace.

does this apply tp the zionists who are blinded by their coherent theology and refusing all the calls beggong them for peace? For me they font see other than occupying the whole of the “promised land” !!!

Sami

Instead of believing what we want to believe, why not start believing in what makes sense?Instead of jumping to false belief and then rationalizing why we’re right, why not use rationality in the first place to arrive at what is worth believing in?

False belief is at the heart of what is wrong in this world. It may give us some small measure of comfort to trumpet our false beliefs loudly to the world, but it gets us nowhere fast on the path to peace.

There is an opportunity, even as we speak, to further the cause of peace. But we will have to seize that opportunity, and that will mean letting go of some of our beliefs, in favor of something we can believe in even more, like peace. We have no choice but to think clearly, and to let go of some of our favorite conspiracy theories, in favor of ideas which make more sense and which move us in the direction of getting along, working together, making this world more sustainabile, and pointing to the possibility of peace. Do we dare to step out of who we are, to become something even more?

Then listen to those rambling about the Protocols being all lies and nazi propaganda. The Zionists were tracking the al-Qa’ida terrorists in the US, they knew what they were up to, and they LET THEM DO IT! Why? Because they knew the Bush fascists wanted an excuse to attack Iraq for the Zionists, and knowing that Saddam Hussain was their biggest enemy, they sacrificed thousands of Americans to achieve their goal!

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad come from a branch of Islam which believes the Koran is not the full and final revelation.

some fictions dont loose their funny taste even if repeated 1000 times.

I do not speak Persian and I cannot read what he actually said, but knowing that Western mainstream media distorts the content of certain speeches, announcement and news content in generals by selective choice of words and biased translation, I am curious if Ahmedinejad sounds like he denied the holocaust also in Persian. Can anyone from Iran confirm that?

he usually uses an ambiguous style to speak about such things. for example, he might be quotes as saying “they [: zionists] ues a lie to justify their crimes”, and once asked what he meant by ‘lie’, he would say: “ok, i didnt mean that holocaust did not happen at all… i meant this or that….”

It sounds somewhat funny that you say “Having grown-up first in the US, then in Israel, and then the US again has given me all different perspectives about the situation with Israel and the Palestinians.” Most people would agree that, judged by their doings the two places do not have any difference in the way of viewing the issue, maybe ignorable nuances. That’s also why you have quite a ridiculous (sorry but that’s how it sounds) opinion as “while Israel has been open to try and negotiate Palestinians only want to fight, gain the land of Israel, back or not, through manipulation of information or through violence.” There is far more evidence to show that this is exactly otherwise and yet you are so conditioned to even dare say it in front of other people. We all have cultural conditionings even when we don’t come from places where it is particularly strong like US or Israel, but as a citizen of both countries you do carry a responsibility to open your mind. Coming here to this forum is a good start and I hope it will go on. I also hope people do not start writing down things to prove to you that it is Israel and not Palestine which is pushing violence and non-negotiation here. It is as obvious as it can be for most people I believe and this discussion has been made thousands of times.

Many people in this area of the world do want to live in peace and they see Israel as the reason why there is no peace -and once again we have to agree with it to a certain level, at least agree that it is the main source of non-peace here. So, people get very sensitive and then you have to use words carefully not to ignite reactions. For example, on a discussion about the Holocaust you still feel obliged to say something like “the Holocaust is most often associated with the concentration and extermination camps, who’s sole purpose truly was to degrade and terminate the people in Europe with Judaic background or faith.” which is not true and you know is not true and you correct it with the next sentence and name the other people dead in the holocaust who were not jews. I don’t think this was deliberate but I just want to point that these kind of things make discussions go on forever witout any results.

And you say: “I also want to point out that its not just about him denying the Holocaust, but about the fact that he has said explicitly that Iran will become a nuclear power and then bomb Israel, hence “wiping them off the map.” Are you sure this is what he said or you heard it in the news? We are made to believe by the mainstream media that Iran, one of the most peaceful countries in the Middle East, will attack Israel, and this poor Israel, clearly the most non-peaceful country in the Middle East, will once again find itself in a position of defence. This is such big crap that it is a very good example of how far media language and propaganda can dare to shift public opinion. First of all currently the only nuclear threat in the Middle East is Israel and it is a threat, since it is a country that is constantly in war with it’s neighbors, keeping big pieces of other countries’ land under occupation, etc. (and is seen as a threat by vast majority of people of the region). Secondly, Ahmedinejad never said he’s going to nuke Israel (“explicitly”???). How could he? He didn’t even admit he’s after them. And for the neo-con mantra of “wiping Israel off the map” I’ll quote the article I have mentioned on my comment #2:

“They say it is not possible to have a world without the United States and Zionism. But you know that this is a possible goal and slogan… We cannot compromise over the issue of Palestine. Is it possible to create a new front in the heart of an old front? This would be a defeat and whoever accepts the legitimacy of this regime [Israel] has in fact, signed the defeat of the Islamic world. Our dear Imam targeted the heart of the world oppressor in his struggle, meaning the occupying regime. I have no doubt that the new wave that has started in Palestine, and we witness it in the Islamic world too, will eliminate this disgraceful stain from the Islamic world.” -Mahmoud Ahmedinejad (on the translation in New York Times)

It’s becoming clear. The statements of the Iranian President have been reflected by the media in a manipulated way. Iran’s President betokens the removal of the regimes, that are in power in Israel and in the USA, to be possible aim for the future. This is correct. But he never demands the elimination or annihilation of Israel. He reveals that changes are potential.

…The term ‘map’ to which the media refer at length does not even appear. Whereas the ‘New York Times’ said: “Our dear Imam said that the occupying regime must be wiped off the map” the version by MEMRI is: “Imam [Khomeini] said: This regime that is occupying Qods [Jerusalem] must be eliminated from the pages of history.”…- literally translated: from the arena of times. [Just as it was a legitimate desire to end apartheid.]

So he is apparently only voicing the concern of tens of millions of people that one day there will be no more Zionism. That would perfectly be a great move towards peace in the world (of course you might not see it that way if you are zionist yourself). Still he is talking of a problematic regime and not the country itself, neither its people (jews). The way media puts it makes me truly sick. It is so “right” to say “mullahs in Iran have to go”, “Taliban has to go” or “communists have to go” but when someone starts talking of “helping zionism go down in the pages of history” all the media rush to persecute him!

…To long for modified political conditions in a country is a world-wide day-to-day business by all means. But to commute a demand for removal of a ‘regime’ into a demand for removal of a state is serious deception and dangerous demagogy.

When we remember how to hear each other and remember that we all are the same and want the same thing, then we will realize peace.

Peace!

Sami: I also do my best to remain open minded, so as I read your responses and comments I attempted to see things from your perspective. However, this is very difficult when I have to sift through all of the random facts that are blown completely out of proportion, as Mani did prove… However, on the whole i think you have really strong points. For example, the fact that the death of Jews in the Holocaust is over-exaggerated and that millions and millions of other people died as well that aren’t quite as emphasized, I find this to be true, but to an extent. I think its true that the Holocaust is most often associated with the concentration and extermination camps, who’s sole purpose truly was to degrade and terminate the people in Europe with Judaic background or faith. You are right, however, that a larger percentage of the people who died in WWII were non-Jews, but also people defending the Jews, people of disability, gypsies, people against the Nazi Party, and the list goes on. But the fact remains that the most targeted minority group were the Jews. This we can find just by looking at history… Do some research.

The idea that the Zionists are trying to use the Holocaust as an excuse to create a holocaust of their own against the Palestinians is an idea worth discussing, because to me the idea that this could be true is unthinkable to be. If you read my response to rehan khan i elaborate more on this…

rehan khan: I agree with everything you said regarding people needing to have the right to free speech, opinions, belief, etc. because it really is human rights that are being discussed. I was not even aware that people are being arrested just for what they believe is truth in Europe, but I truly disapprove and hope the situation changes. What you said about the Jews giving Ahmadinejad importance and trying to exaggerate the situation is a bit of a generalization. I also want to point out that its not just about him denying the Holocaust, but about the fact that he has said explicitly that Iran will become a nuclear power and then bomb Israel, hence “wiping them off the map.” This is what frightens me, as well as, I assume, most Israelis and Jews, not just Ahmadinejad’s crazy babble. Lastly, what you said about Jews using the Holocaust as an excuse for their political and military actions i feel is somewhat vague. How can we possibly use that as an excuse? Like you said it’s an tragic and terrible part of the world’s history, that helped bring the realization that there needs to be a country or state in which Jewish people can live and not be outsiders in their own nation. After that it became a matter of geography. Clearly, the Palestinians were not treated rightly, and that has been a source of conflict ever since. You’re saying that Israel has used the Holocaust as reasoning for their actions but I don’t understand where this claim has come from or how its even possible. Don’t get me wrong, i’m not saying everything Israel has done has been justified, but neither has the actions of the Palestinians. There has been some foul play on both sides, but i would just like to point out that while Israel has been open to try and negotiate Palestinians only want to fight, gain the land of Israel, back or not, through manipulation of information or through violence. Or at least that is how it seems from my current perspective. If you have more information on this I would be glad to discuss this further…

od yavo shalom aleinu, salam, aleinu ve al kol ha olam
may there be peace, for us and throughout the world

“…jews monopolized the disaster to silence their opponents and to drown the affections of others while they actually committing another Holocaust against the Palestinians of annihilating a whole people!!”

Its the jews you are accusing, not the Zionists. And you did this more than once in your posts in this forum.
If holocaust denial becomes your chief argument against Israeli occupation then that makes you no different from those Zionists who use holocaust to support the occupation. I am sympathetic to your predicament but unfortunately your posts never go beyond hateful rant to anything jewish or western, devoid of any thoughtful analysis.

Regarding what you say here:

“With all respect and sorrow for all the lives, Amongst all the millions lost their lives in WW2 (for the zionists and for the whole world accordingly) no one lost lives but the jews, no one deserve to be mentioned but the jews !!! The jewish blood is used here to justify their Nazi crimes against us, the Palestinians, and they use the whole world for this!!! They extravagantly exaggerated the jewish blood to seal and annihilate all the others killed in WW2, for the world to remember only the blood of the “chosen people” !!! Why? To justify annihilating the Palestinians? This is how the zionist mentality works!!! There is nothing but the jewish blood, the jewish victim!!!”

Simply not true, at least not in Germany. Here, in every single village, you find a memorial for the soldiers of both world wars that died. You can find, for example in the city of Colgone, the former SA-headquarter in which many political prisoners were killed and deportes from for example France or Russia were kept and killed. It’s a very good museum now and a memorial for these people. You find memorials all over Germany for the handicapped that were murdered for not being healthy. You can find memorials for the Sinti and Roma, and also for the murdered homosexuals. The concentration camps within Germany that are memorials and museums now also tell the story of the people who were imprisoned there by the Russians after 1945. We remember our killed citizens from 1953 that tried to overcome the German Democratic Republic. We remember the people that were killed when they tried to make it to West Germany.

No-one has ever stopped us from remembering these people and events. Who are “they”? Who stops you from remembering?

Honestly, your posts (at leats the ones from the two threads I’ve seen, of course I don’t know them all) are nothing but boring. You don’t even care to get into a discussion when people challenge what you’re saying. Instead, you just bring up the same points again and again and again (”chosen people”, “zionist plot”, YAWN!). You’re just talking to yourself and we have to listen, unfortunately.

Mina, dont bother to reply Sami. He has nothing but vile hatred for the Jews.

First, are you the “big brother” to decide who to reply to whom? Is Mina a juvenile to decide for her what to say and whom to reply? Are you the big boss of the net here?

Second, I never hated jews nor would allow myself to be racist like the zionists. My x-girlfriend is a jew, last month I hosted four jews for a whole weekend in my house and all on the house (just to show you the generosity of the bedouins). Also this weekend I am having a hike with jew friends for two days (and I will get off your back for the whole coming weekend, but I will be thinking of a “new brans” antizionist post that might surprise you). I have read of Judaism and zionism probably more than you, but the more I read the more I become antizionist !!!

All the best “big brother” roodrow !!

Sami, the bedouin.