Green Movement supports sanctions on Iran?
November 25th, 2009I just read a Time article which discussed the Green Movement reaching out to the US for help. Filmmaker Mohsen Makhmalbaf, who is lives in exile in Europe, was sent to the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, by the opposition/Green Movement to discuss matters of how to deal with Iran. He urges the U.S. to develop a harsher stance toward the government of Iran in regards to its various human and civil rights abuses. He also urged Washington to place sanctions upon the IRGC-Revolutionary Guard and its ‘vast business interests’.
I post this in response to various groups here in the West such as NIAC, for example ,who have been using the “Hands off Iran” approach. What they don’t understand is that sanctions directed toward the government would not hurt the people of Iran. They are directed at business entities that are owned by groups such as the IRGC for e.g.
“As the Administration begins lobbying its international partners for punitive new measures against Iran, Makhmalbaf and other opposition figures have urged the U.S. to focus primarily on the Revolutionary Guards. The élite unit is a growing political and economic behemoth, and its leadership is critical in propping up the troubled regime. They are not supporting other measures under consideration, like curbs on gasoline imports Iran relies on for domestic consumption, because these would mainly hurt the Iranian public, opposition figures have told U.S. officials.
We need certain sanctions to hurt the regime, but not the people,” said Makhmalbaf, who urged Washington to quickly impose a series of sanctions on the Guards since incremental steps allow them time to develop alternatives. The award-winning filmmaker, who now lives in Europe, said he was sent to Washington by the opposition; his talk at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace was attended by senior officials from the National Security Council and the State Department.”
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I dont know how a man cooperates with the enemy to impose a sanction against his own people if he is nothing but a traitor and a tool in the hands of the alien intelligence agencies !!! Why he is aginst the modernization of his own country and people? Inst the nuclear technology a national option for all the Iranians?
Why the “greens” dont impose sanction of the aggressive and occupying Israel? At least Iran is not occupying another people and commit a massacre after another against a native people fighting for its freedom? what are the “greens” if not used by the intelligence agencies???
Sami, the bedouin
Sami, the Iranian people if you hadn’t noticed don’t all view the U.S. as ‘the enemy’. If you know anything about Iranian culture or history, you would know that Iranians embrace western themes, such as music, artists, movies, fashion, and even food. The people of Iran do not view the U.S. in the way you may think they do.
Secondly, who is talking about sanctions on the people? Placing sanctions on govt. entities such as the IRGC which is owns a vast amount of assets in Iran would be more beneficial to the movement, and wouldn’t have an effect on the people. The whole reason why the current regime is still standing is because of the IRGC, and its vast amounts of influence in the govt.
Thirdly, Obama has not been very stern in his position against the regime, and what it has been doing as of late. He’d rather strike a nuclear deal with the mullahs, then listen to the cries of the protesters asking for freedom. Opening up ‘diplomatic discussion’ with the regime is basically confirming their legitimacy as Iran’s leaders. So I think your assumption that the ‘greens’ are working alongside ‘the enemy’ are simply ridiculous.
It is the same rhetoric that this regime has been using to undermine the opposition. It is the same rhetoric that has been used in the past 30 years to oppose patriotism, nationalism, and an Iranian identity- simply blame the West. I’m sorry, but that doesn’t work anymore, and the people of Iran will not get fooled by it again (I personally don’t think they ever bought it anyway).
Lastly, the protesters in the streets have made it clear that they do not want a nuclear weapon, which IS what the govt. of Iran wants. It doesn’t take an idiot to figure that out.
Sami, I understand that you probably went through some very harsh seasons in your life. However, bringing in the issue of Palestine/Israel is completely irrelevant. No offense, but the problems of Palestinians are their own to fix, not Iranians. The issue with Palestine is one of the reasons why people in Iran don’t see any of revenue from oil. The regime gives over 250 million dollars a year to Hamas to build its terrorist infrastructure. Does any of that money go to helping the citizens in Gaza or the West Bank? Does it go to improving the economy or go to creating jobs? No. The people of Iran have had it with the whole Palestine/Israel problem, in fact, and again no offense, it is NOT their problem. This sentiment has been echoed in the streets of most major cities in Iran on Quds Day(Jerusalem Day for those who don’t know).
Lastly Sami, the regime is ‘occupying another people and committing one massacre after another against a native people fighting for its freedom’. The regime has been doing just that since Khomeini took power 30 years ago.
-Hamid
Hamid
Thanks. I really like your post and I agree with evrything you write. Personally I think the issue is that money is too much in the hands of the IRGC and others in the regime. The country should be rich but so much is horded by those in power. But what can be done?
Ehsan
Hamid,
I am with Iran strong and modern and I really pray for that… I know that there are some prejudice against the people as there has been some protesting, but believe me that what the above mentioned “green” Mr. Muhsen is working against his own country and people as he is cooperating with the (senior officials from the National security Council and the State department) as stated below…. and I believe the evil is one as you know that the States is directed by the AIPAC who draw the American foreign policy, as the zionists are furious urging everybody, including traitors like Muhsen to cooperate with them and force sanction against the Iranian people !!!
For me, there are two opposing camps; the zionist-led American one against the muslem one… and in this confrontation there are lots of collaborators are used to defuse the muslem power to keep the zionists terrorizing the region and plundering our resources !!
The Iranians, all the Iranians will become slaves for the West power if they abandon their seek for a modernized and powerful Iran… and I pray for the Iranian, all the Iranians to stay dignified as I know and respect them… Nobody would dare to stand in front of the Nuclear Iran, however the west will step on the weak Iran after defusing their project of modernizing Iran … they want to keep us in need for them, to sell their products for us,to keep us just consumers for their lifestyle and products, to sell us outdated and rubbish weapons in order to keep ruling us and enslaving us !! Have you heard of how many weapon deals done with the Gulf countries just in the few passing years? and all these weapons are ages behind Israel, which is backed (even during committing the Holocaust on the Gazan people) with the most fatal and modern American weapons !!!
For me, anybody who is trying to cooperate with the West to defuse Iran is not more that an opportunist traitor, and even here in Palestine you would stacks (send me a truck and I will send it back full to you) of traitors work against Iran in service for their zionist masters !!!
I dont care about Ahmadinijad or Ahmadibanana, but I do care for Iran and the Iranian people who must (regardless of their political views) stand with modernizing Iran…. otherwise, you and Mr. Muhsen “the green” are working to take Iran centuries back like what happened in Iraq.
God bless Iran
Sami, the bedouin.
Sami,
Muhsen was sent to simply speak to these officials about the U.S. not adopting a harsher stance towards the regime, and what is has been doing in the past months. I doubt that a person simply suggesting that the U.S. use sanctions directed at government assets is considered ‘collaborating with the enemy’.
How is a terrorist-supporting regime obtaining a nuclear weapon in anyway progressive, or as you put ‘modernizing’?
Nuclear energy in the hands of this regime would not only be hurtful toward the people, but it is hurtful to the entire middle east at large. It would push Iran further away from the world itself until it becomes a Middle Eastern North Korea.IF Iran was to follow through with “Wiping Israel off the map”(which I doubt anyway) do you think Palestine is exempt? What about Saudi, Syria, Lebanon? If this regime was able to finish their ‘project for modernizing Iran’ it would most definitely keep them in power for another 30+ years to rape and pillage the Iranian people as it has done for the past 30. So yes you are right. No one would stand up to a nuclear Iran, which means that the cries of the Iranian people for change would go on ignored to prevent angering the mullahs and their new nuclear toy.
In my honest opinion, the only ‘traitors’ are those who advocate ‘friendly dialogue’ with the IRI. The ones who lobby for a more ‘hands-off-Iran’ approach in which the Iranian govt. must not be punished for their crimes against humanity, and instead must be spoken to as if their leadership is any form legitimate.
-Hamid
Hamid, I agree with you wholeheartedly.
It is true that nuclear weapons in the hands of the Mullahs would pose an existential threat to Israel. However, I would argue that it would threaten Iranians themselves even more, by allowing the regime to perpectuate its oppression of the people, and by allowing them to perpetuate their destructive foreign policy, including their funding of terror.
It is not a mystery why the Iranian regime wants nuclear weapons. Such weapons would create a protective shield, an insurance policy of sorts, to protect Iran from outside interference. But why do the Mullahs need such protection? It’s simple. They need it to do what it takes to suppress any internal opposition, and to further their foreign policy agenda, including the funding of terror, and the destablizing of other regimes.
Nuclear weapons in Iran would mean that other nations in the region would follow suit, and soon you would see a nuclear arms race throughout the region, in a place where ideology trumps common sense.
I also agree with Hamid that as yet the American administration has not shown support for the opposition, and has refused to impose serious sanctions on those who wield the power in Iran. The reason for this is the faint hope that a deal could somehow be negotiated. But given the regimes instability, and its perceived need for the protection that nuclear weapons would provide, there is little hope for a negotiated settlement.
Therefore, and I dread even thinking of the risks involved, it will probably be necessary to take the nuclear facilities out. Israel may opt to do this, not only because of the existential threat she faces, but also because of the need to stop a nuclear arms race. But Israel should not have to do this alone. A consortium of nations should be formed to accomplish this miserable task, so that the effort is not seen as solely coming from Israel. The Saudis, Egyptians, Jordanians, Americans, and the like should all play a part in some way so that the effort to deprive the Iranian regime of nuclear waeapons is seen as a broad based effort.
Once this is accomplished, every means of support should be given the the Iranian people themselves to reclaim their rights, and to reconsitute their nation as they see fit, and in conformance with their values.
Hamid, I agree with most of what you have to say.
The Iranian people should have the right to vote for a government that represents them and their values. The present regime is out of step with the will of a great many Iranians. It is no wonder that the Mullahs want a nuclear weapons capability. Such a weapon would give them a certain amount of cover to do what they want both internally and externally. Internally they could suppress any dissent. Externally they could continue to promote their foreign agenda, including the support for terrorist organizations.
It is true that a nuclear Iran poses an existential threat to Israel. But even more so, a nuclear Iran poses a threat to its own people, and to other nations in the region. For this reason, nuclear weapons capability in Iran is likely to trigger a nuclear arms race in the region. The trouble is that nuclear weapons and an ideological mindset just don’t mix.
The Obama administration has been timid in its dealings with Iran, perhaps in the hope of reaching a negoitated settlement. I think that such an outcome is unlikely given the perceived need that the Mullahs have for nuclear capability. They see it as the ultimate insurance policy, and they will not be easily deterred, even by sanctions.
I believe that the nuclear facilities may have to be removed by force, even though doing so poses great risks to those who undertake such a task. Therefore, if the decision is made to do so, it should be undertaken by a broad coalition of partners, so as to demonstrate broad support. At such time, the Iranian people should be supported and encouraged to reconstitute their government consistent with the aspirations and values of the people.
So Hamid,
You prefer to live and cooperate with the nuclear israel against your own country to keep the zionists stepping on the face of your people??? Great… go ahead with the Satan !!
SAMI,
I understand what you are saying, but its not like that at all.
In what way is Israel against the Iranian people? Israel was Iran’s closest ally before these religious nut-jobs took power in 1979. When are you going to be able to make the distinction between the Iranian government, and the Iranian people? The government, as much as hardliners and sympathizers say, does not represent the people of Iran. Their nuclear program is not in agreement with the interests of the people(the majority anyway).
When people like Ahmadinejad are going around saying that Israel needs to be “wiped off the map”, or that Israel is “a decaying and crumbling tree that will fall with a storm”, I’m sorry how do you expect any nation to react? These words aren’t the only anti-Israel words that have been spoken, the IRI has been on the anti-Israel bandwagon since it took power in 1979. On the top of that, you’re expecting the world to believe that Iran’s nuclear program is for electricity? Modernization? Give me a break.
I’m sorry to tell you Sami, but not every situation that happens in the world has a big U.S./Zionist conspiracy behind it. Lastly, who do expect that Iran stand with? Russia? Venezuela? Libya? You’re basically saying that Iran is better off with the allies it has now, right? Iran should continue cooperating with groups like Hamas, or Hezbollah more right? Iran should continue to support terrorism against ‘the great satan’, then be apart of the rest of civilized world. If standing with the West means keeping Islamo-fascists out of Iran, then I’m all for going ahead with Satan.
-Hamid
Hamid and Sami
I think your discusion is typical of other arguments I have read. But we all share the view that Iran should be strong and its people free. Surely we can agree that part of the problem is economic dismanagement, because if Irans leaders spent the wealth with wisdom the country would be much stronger.
Hamid, having thought about it some more, I dont think we should want to see sanctions even if aimed at instiutions like IRGC, UNLESS it could be done in such a way not to hurt anyone else. Because if the IRGC found themselves with less money what would they do? They would take even more away from the poor to make up the diffrence.
And now it has been announced that Ahmadinejad has approved building for many more nuclear sites. This may lead to more sanctions but even if it doesnt think of this: how much will they cost?? Are there not more urgent needs?
Ehsan
Ehsan,
In my honest opinion I think any sanctions aimed at the IRGC, rather than the economy itself, wouldn’t hurt the population. The closing of IRGC bank accounts would be an example, or freezing assets that they have elsewhere. Sanctions that would hurt the population rather than the govt. would be those on petroleum exports/imports, for example.
As I mentioned before, if the IRGC loses money to spend it loses its power hold on the economy and the people, which is good news for the opposition. The IRGC is a kickstand for this govt. If their assets are hit hard, then they become weakened. Which would hopefully give the opposition a vulnerable spot to strike.
Dealing with Iran has proven to be tricky. Dialogue further legitimizes the govt. rule, but certain sanctions hurt the people. Military action has the probability of Iran turning into another Iraq/Afghanistan, but allowing Iran to obtain nukes poses a threat to the entire region. There is no easy way in dealing with the IRI. However, to me, simply doing nothing isn’t going to help out our cause. I hope I’m not creating a false dilemma here, but it seems that our only choices are: military action/sanctions (preferably the latter), dialogue, or assuming that regime officials are telling the truth, and really want nuclear technology simply for electricity, or as Sami puts it, modernization. There really is no easy way I can think of.
This is a possibility, but through what means would they be able to further rob a population that is already poor to begin with?
-Hamid
Hamid
Khamenei will do evrything to make sure the IRGC isnt weakened because the IRGC is one of the strongest things keeping him in place. If constraints might be placed on money available to the IRGC he will ensure that other investments are cut first. It might be investment in infastructure that is cut or salaries for goverment employees, but there are other places they can take money from to ensure IRGC stays rich that will damage the poor even more. What do you think?
I think military action must be a step closer now that the news is filled with the decision to have so many more nuclear sites. It really worries me.
Ehsan
I can feel the dilemma that Hamid and Ehsan are grappling with. There are no easy answers. But at a certain point, we must find the courage to see things as they are, and to take the steps to make them better.
The extremists are not fools. They are interested in political power, and they use the levers of power that are available to them. A little terror here and there. A pinch of oppression when called for. A contorted interpretation of Holy Scripture. And the list goes on and on.
All this is fine and good. Obviously extremism has been around since the beginning of civilization. However, when you bring nuclear weapons into the mix, this is a game changer. Nuclear weapons in the wrong hands are a dead end for the destiny of man. And don’t kid yourselves; an ideological regime, faced with the prospect of its own demise, will resort to any means available, even an option that will bring about mass destruction.
I know that this issue is not simple, and is laden with moral and strategic ambiguity. What is simple, however, is that Iran, as presently consituted, should not be allowed to have nuclear weapons. And the people who should most advocate on behalf of this position, are the Iranian people themselves.
If you think that fighting for your freedom is difficult now, wait until the Mullahs possess nuclear weapons. They will be shielded from any outside intereference, and will be free to do whatever it takes to further consolidate their hold on power. This cannot be allowed, for the sake of the Iranian people, for the sake of the region as a whole, and for the sake of the destiny of man.
Well said,
I think that if the rest of the world doesn’t do something fast, it is going to become a matter of time between the IRI and their nuclear ambitions, and the Green movement to begin devising a new strategy to topple this regime.
Yes, well said Nissim. But I wonder what this new strategy for the green movement might be, especialy if it is a race against time. Is there anything obvious that hasnt been tried? Im thinking hard about this.
Ehsan
Ehsan and Hamid, I will share my views with you, but I have to admit that I don’t know that much about Iran, its people, or the Green Movement. However, I do subscribe to the idea that most people the world over do want the same things, and it is the ideological extremists, wherever they may be, who hold them back from achieving their aspirations.
What you do have going for you is the fact that in the final analysis, the will of the people is a powerful force, a force to be reckoned with, a force which usually wins. When a ruling regime is out of step with the will of the people, it will eventually fall.
My advice would be to start by determining exactly what principles you stand for. For example, I know some things about the Green Movement in Iran, but I can’t honestly say that I know what they stand for. In the U.S., for example, our founding fathers enunciated certain principles: the idea that people are born with certain inalianable rights, and that among these are the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. We believe in the separation of church and state. We beleive in certain freedoms: the freedom to assemble, the right to free speech, a free press, freedom of religion. We believe in due process, and equal protection under the law, etc.
Of course, these founding principles were written a long time ago, but they have withstood the test of time. Perhaps you could write a set of principles that embody your aspirations and values.
When I think about the Middle East, and the world at large, I gravitate to certain principles that I think could help us all to move in the right direction, principles that I call Selling a Vision of Hope:
I believe that the world is ready for a new ideological framework based on common sense principles. Instead of believing what we want to believe, why not start believing in what makes sense? Instead of jumping to false belief and rationalizing why we’re right, why not use rationality in the first place to arrive at what is worth believing in. In a more perfect world, common sense, the collective wisdom born of shared experience, will inspire our thinking and inform our speech. In our fractured world, common sense is the common denominator.
I believe that we should invest in one another to create good paying jobs: jobs which grow our economy, jobs which project the environment, and jobs which help to neutralize the hold of extremist thinking.
I believe in using Ideology and Investment to sell on another on a Vision of Hope, a vision of Peace, Prosperity, and Freedom.
I believe in sustaining the hope by launching a series of Public Diplomacy Programs which would prop the vision up and carry it forward, including: empowering women by micro financing female entrepreneurs and promoting women’s right, student exchanges, cultural exchanges, media campaigns, and expanded version of the Peace Corps, international conferences, etc.
I believe in fighting against the forces of extremism, and fighting hard, but also positioning the fight within a Vision of Hope. Raise the fight on the ground to a higher moral plain by giving the fight a moral clarity of purpose. We are not fighting a war against terror. We are fighting a war to realize a Vision of Hope. There’s a big difference.
Once you cristalize the movement’s principles, then you would send the message as best you can, with peaceful protests, the internet, the media, films, songs, concerts, etc. You would make your message known around the world, and rally support from all four corners of the globe.
If you see injustice, you will expose it as best you can. If you see that an innocent person is about to be executed, you can surround the prison or courtroom in silent vigil, and tell his or her story to all who would listen.
It’s all about raising awareness and consciousness about your cause, once you’ve defined what it is you stand for. Wanting to topple the regime may not be enough. You want to know what would replace the regime, and why.
And you may need patience as well. It will not happen overnight. Passive resistance is a slow and deliberate process. But in the end, if the cause is just, people of goodwill will listen, and will help as best they can. Governments which have remained quiet and calculating, will reconsider once they realize that you are truly representing the will of the people, and that you are a force to be reckoned with.
In terms of the nuclear issue, this may be out of your hands, but you can make your opinions known, and your feelings in this regard will carry weight in the calculus of the international community as it considers what to do.
These are a few ideas. Much more thinking and soul searching is needed. But in the end, we must never give up on the idea of justice, for whomever justice has been denied, whether in Iran, or beyond.
It is funny when Mr. Nissim speaks of extremists and ideological regime !!!
It seems that he forgot we he is from and what ideological regime he represents: Israel is the most extremist and racist regime now, and with nuclear power that threatens all its neighbors !!!
The hypocratic West is with the racist nuclear Israel but against the Islamic Republic, it is with the nuclear South Africa when it was racist but against it when it is democratic !! Actually, the west is against nuclear Iran simply because the zionists are against it, because they are led by the zionist lobbies in the west Parliament…. and they both, the zionist and the west, would fight to keep the Muslims powerless in front of the racist israel to sabotage whenever and wherever they want as Israel does every couple of years !!!
The nuclear Islam means the end of the aggressive west occupation for our regions and the end of their plundering our resources… so simple, so clear !!!
Its even funnier when you try to paint yourself as the essence of truth and rationality. Like your really any different than what you criticize others for.
As I recall, it is Iran who threatened Israel with nuclear weapons repeatedly. Just wondering: Is the Sudanese governments systematic killing of members of ethnic groups that it sees as potential threats considered racist by you? If Israel is so powerful and so oppressive why are you not dead yet? If the Khartoum government is willing to kill its own people without regard to what the UN says or does then why isn’t Israel, “the MOST racist nation on earth,” willing to go the same distance? I think your views on Israel are simply a projection of your own racist feelings.
This old tale again. The Zionists are scaring or compelling the west against its will. The west does not do anything that it believes is against its own interest. You assume that western politicians are stupid or lack control, neither of which is true. Nations don’t rely on the words of others to assess their security needs. Thats like having a the car salesman bargain and shop around for your new car in your stead. Iran is a perceived security threat to many of their nations and they will be concerned whether or not Israel is. Using your logic, I could say the only reason the UN passes resolutions against Israel is because the Muslim nations bully the rest of the world into doing so. When in reality, everyone needs a scapegoat to take attention off themselves. However, the target is different for different nations/interest groups.
The main resource in the Middle East is oil found in the gulf. Since you are not an elite of any GCC nation let alone even a normal citizen, how do justify saying that resources in this part of the world are yours? Simply because you share a common language (at least in the formal form) with other Arab nations does not mean you and them are one. If they thought so, you would have petrodollars.
You way to into the “clash of civilizations” theory.
Your statement about nuclear Islam is simple, but that does not mean its right. It just means you didn’t have to think to generate it.
Well, that’s one possibility, Sami. The other is that a nuclear Iran means a more intense oppression of its people, a continued funding of terror, a nuclear arms race in the region, and a destablizing influence in most of the Sunni states.
By the way, if the Iranian regime is so good for the region, how do you explain all the opposition from Iranians themselves , and all the fears in the Sunni states?
Israel may be accused of some racism, but it is certainly not the most racist state. Israel is made up of 20% Arabs, who enjoy more rights, and who have a higher standard of living, than any other Arabs in the Middle East. How do you explain that, Sami?
You will recall that Israel enjoyed good relations with Iran prior to the revolution. If the West ends up siding with Israel on this, it is not because of their love for Israel. People are not so good-hearted. It is because they share a common interest with Israel, namely, not to allow a fundamentalist and ideological regime to posess weapons of mass destruction, and thus endanger the whole region, and the whole world for that matter.
With all due respect, Sami, your vision when it comes to this is a bit clouded. You impose your view of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict in situations where it doesn’t belong. And you discount the ability and willingness of Israel to help the Palestinian people. I said this before, and I’ll say it now, there is no country on earth which is more able, and more willing, to bring justice to Palestinains than Israel. I know it seems strange, but I’m becoming more and more convinced of this day by day. And a lot of Palestinians are beginning to agree.
Up to now, Palestinian leaders have needed Israel to be an enemy. The time is quickly approaching when they will need Israel to be a friend.
It also means the end of freedom, and the complete submission to Sharia Law.
So… Mr. Big amd Mr. Nissim… shall I add the zionists?
The same old sibilant symphony of the “only democratic oasis in the middle east” !! the same attempts to dehumanize the Arabs as less “democratic” and not as enlightened as the “beloved sons of God” !!!
So.. you both are in love with the “enlightened” zionists occupation and get furious when I speak up for my freedom? I hope, from my deep heart< that you live just one year under such a brutal occupation to see how "enlightened" it is !! How it is "democratic" to stay long hours everyday at the checkpoints to go to school or to work!! How in your waiting at the checkpoints you see the "human" settlers have their own highways without any deterrence, on the contrary, at the time the "enlightened" soldiers at the time curse you and snare at you face, they smile to their fellow settlers of the "chosen people" !!!
I really wish you just spend 10% of the years I spent in jail and face just 1% of the torture I faced… and for what? only because I want my freedom !!!
Where on earth the homes of the natives are demolished and the government is hectic to build homes for the racist settlers? Where on earth there are highways for the invading settlers and narrow pathes through hell of checkpoints for the "goyim" ????
Are you living on the moon Nissim and Big?… Sure, you enjoy the "enlightened democracy" simply because you live in the only "democratic oasis" in the middle east !!
I just wonder how a racist occupier speaks of democracy !! It isreallly frustrating to see the yesterday jailor comes to speaks you of democracy today… have you shot a Palestinian Nissam? Have you interrogated a goy Big?… you are not only racists… but also zionist propagandists that after serving in killing the civilian of Gaza, come to breach us of democracy !!!
Sami, the bedouin
I think you’re the one who is actually racist and a propagandist. For starters, you believe in the same Zionist conspiracy crap that descends from “the protocols of the elders of zion.” (An anti-Semitic forgery originating in 19th century Russia) Secondly, many of your threads have made blood libel accusations such as Jews collectively wanting to harvest Palestinian organs and kill Palestinian children. The blood libel fantasy was used by non-Jewish debtors in central and eastern Europe who owed money to Jewish individuals. In order to escape that debt they would make accusations that the Jew was killing Christian children and leave a mangled pig by his house as evidence. Since, the Jew would be arrested, the debt was made void. Both of those strategies were used in 18th and 19th century Europe before you discovered what they were. Whats interesting is that your borrowing opinions from the westerners whom you hate so much. You disguise your opinions with ideals of “resistance” and”freedom,” but in reality all you wish to do is wipe out everyone who doesn’t look, talk, think, or act like you. Everything you say is a cover for your own personal feelings of inferiority. Lastly, you always make every post on this blog about you and your emotional baggage. Thus, you are a classic narcissist and an Arab propagandist. if you actually wanted to debate you would stick to the threads that are about the issue you care about (i.e. Israelit-Palestinian debate). Instead, you use close to every thread here as a forum for your views. Furthermore, you ignore views and evidence when it does not suit your ideology – just like your current argument with Hamid, and your constant bickering at Nissim. Neither have demonstrated a lack of sympathy for you, but you label them as either Zionist collaborators or Zionist racists simply because their opinions don’t fit the west is bad, Islamic world is good philosophy that you have dedicated your life to perpetuating.
As I mentioned above, your conspiracy theories are the same hackneyed opinions used to demonize Jews and Israelis for centuries. I never said anything about the Arabs being less democratic. Stop putting words into my mouth for your own benefit. Last, I recall, the son of God is Jesus Christ according to Christianity. Judaism and Islam do not currently believe that anyone is the son of God. Also, don’t Muslims view themselves as chosen in some way? All religions believe themselves to be the most accurate otherwise they would not be separate from others.
Since you have a tendency to lie and over-embellish details on your threads, I have no incentive to believe this ever happened without corroborating evidence. So 10% and 1% of 0 then? (By the way: .1 * 0 = 0 and .01 * 0 = 0). If I am wrong and you were in jail, who did you kill or maim?
I am from America. Not everyone who disagrees with you is automatically an Israeli.
For the record Islam and Democracy are two opposing concepts. Democracy and Islam are incompatible because Islam believes that Allah is the sole ruler of the ummah, whereas democracy doesn’t need a specific deity to rule over the masses. Because of this Muslims view ‘democracy’ especially the U.S. version as a threat to their way of life.
-Hamid
I cannot speak on Big’s behalf, although I do agree with a lot of what he has to say, but yes, I am a Zionist, in that I believe in the right of the Jews to have a homeland of their own. That is what Zionism means. I do not believe in occupation. I do not believe in racism. But I do believe in a Jewish homeland for several reasons: 2000 years of persecution, the Holocaust, the historical connection of the Jews to this land for some 3000 years, the religious legacy of this land, etc.
By the way, as I mentioned to you before, Sami, the vast majority of Jews are Zionists in that they believe as I do, and as Herzl did, about the right of the Jews to a homeland of their own. You seem to draw a great divide between Jews and Zionists, and I believe that for most Jews, no such divide exists.
Where we differ is that I believe that Zionism is compatible with justice for Palestinians. In all your writings, I never once saw a solution proposed that could possibly lead to peace. I see a lot of anger and venting, but never a solution.
I believe in less talk, and more action when it comes to peace. And as far as I can tell, more Palestinians are coming around to this point of view. People like Prime Minister Fayyad are not sitting around philosophizing about who is right and who is wrong. They are busy creating jobs, and building institutions for a new, free, and economicaly vibrant Palestinian state. In my opionion, that’s what should occupy our time.
I don’t think it’s a stretch to say that Israel is probably the only democracy in the Middle East. As Hamid makes clear, democracy is not something that has been cultivated in the Arab world, although there are strong pressures from the people to move in this direction.
I take you at your word that you spent a great many years in jail. I assume you were imprisoned for breaking the law. I don’t blame you for wanting your freedom. I just want you to be more open and creative about how to achieve that noble goal.
I, for one, don’t think I’m living on the moon. I’m living in this world, with you in it, and am searching, therefore, for a way to get along with you. How is that?
As far as being a “racist occupier,” well, how about you and I figure out how to end the occupation, so that we can both live side by side, in peace, and work together to bring justice to all concerned? Any ideas, Sami?
I have not shot anyone. My wife complains that I refuse to kill anything that moves, including bugs. I believe in life, not killing. I believe we were all created in God’s image, and therefore, we were put on this earth to live, not to kill, and not to die before our time.
To go back to the subject of Hamids original post – “Green Movement supports sanctions on Iran?” – we may disagree strongly on that question, but today is 16 Azar in Iran and reports of clashes in Tehran are already on Twitter. The regime may be more brutal than ever today and I hope that like me you will support those seeking greater freedom from the corrupt leaders of Iran.
Ehsan (Ghoul_Sabz on Twitter)
Nissim
You wrote above about the need for a Vision of Hope and for cristalyzing the movements principles. Have you seen the manefesto at the “Democratic Nation of Iran” site here?
http://iran115.org/manifesto
It might be the right kind of statement.
Ehsan
Back to the track !!
Whay all the hypocrite west is barking daily against Nuclear Iran while no dog barks against the atrocious occupying nuclear Israel???
Since the first days, Islamic Iran is fought against and Iraq was used to fight its Islamic neighbor for a long, exhausting and depleting war for both, and now Islam is fought against in Iran and everywhere in the name of “democracy” and “human rights” while the hypocrite West is enthusiastically supporting their feudal backward agent in Saudi Arabia and which doesn’t respect any of the “rights” and “morals” the west is trying to deceive us with !!!
It is not the “human rights” they are fighting for. They, the hypocrite West, doesnt even care about the muslems in Iran or any other place, nor they care about the simple people who are fighting for freedom everywhere…. they are using the people to keep ruling the region here and suppressing the muslem people in the name of “human rights” and “democracy” the two magic words used to fight Islam but they dont care of what is going on of violating their “human rights” in Iraq, Afganistan and Palestine !!!
The West is who supporting the colonial zionism and facilitating their nuclear power and no dirty dog of them is uttering a word against the nuclear zionists !!! The west are those who supported the racist South Africa to build a nuclear power but disarmed the democratic South Africa…. They are trying to monopolize the nuclear power for themselves and their racist regimes like the artocious zionist entity to keep suppressing the muslems and keep plundering their resources !!!
The west doesnt care about the Iranian people nor any muslem people but they do care about the zionists and want to disarm Iran for the zionists to keep occupying Palestine and threatening all the Arabs and muslems !!
The people who are repeating the words of the west of “democracy” and “Human rights” are not more than collaborators knowingly or unknowingly and only serving the zionists who use these words at the time depriving the natives of Palestine of any human rights !!!
Sami, the bedoun.
Sami
Democracy and human rights are not “the words of the west”. They are not the words of anywhere. They mean that we would have a goverment elected (fairly!) by the people that does not steal the peoples wealth, and a goverment that does not rape and torture its people. Dont you see how much stronger Iran would be if our goverment had these principals? The Iranian people would be free to build a great country rather than being attacked and killed by the leaders.
I wholeheartedly agree with Ehsan.
There are certain rights that people have that are universal in nature, and that are not subject to the whims and caprices of corrupt or ideological leaders.
People are quick to jump to certain beliefs, and I’m sure that some of Iran’s leaders believe in what they’re doing. There are all sorts of ways to rationalize what you happen to believe.
It may well be time to step back from what we happen to believe, in favor of what we can believe in even more, like peace, prosperity, and freedom.
Iran’s leadership is desperately trying to hold on to something whick will not stand, not with an educated and freedom loving people. They have in their minds some notions that do not square with the will and aspiration of the people. Sooner or later, the will of the people will overcome whatever is in the way. We are moving beyond the time when you can hope to keep people down for an extended period of time. In today’s media savvy world, a world of instant communication, everyone knows what everyone knows, and people have even more tools at their disposal to make their will known, and to organize themselves into a movement for change.
I think that much of this applies to Palestinians as well. They have it within their grasp to build a new state, with freedom, and with a vibrant economy. Israel will play its part in making that happen. But Palestinians will have to let go of some of the resentment, hard as that may be, in favor of a more hopeful vision for the future.